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Author Topic: edrums acceptance?  (Read 6213 times)

Jannice Torres

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Re: edrums acceptance?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2011, 06:25:19 pm »

My brother is the drummer and he doesn't like it at all.  He brings his hi-hat and pedal from home and he hates the way the cymbals don't provide a subtle gradual sound.  We have a Yamaha DTXPRESS IV.

Everyone else, including me, loves it. The sound is great, even, deep, controllable, etc. 

I would say, if your sound guy is good at controlling the drums sound with the plastic wall dampers and the mic mix, then go for acoustic drums.  If sound guy is lacking (mine is, LOL) go for electronic, which helps control sound better.
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Taylor Phillips

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Re: edrums acceptance?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2011, 09:57:55 pm »

While someone could adjust their playing or settings based on what they hear during a performance, they are almost always making such judgments based on something other than what the listeners hear. 
I think what we have hear is confusion on mixing versus blending.  Mixing being getting everything at the right levels for the venue, blending being adjusting your voice or instrument to the particular song.  I would agree the only time the musicians should be mixing is if they are playing in a small venue with no one at front of house, or if the drum kit is unmic'd, in which case the drummer is the only who really needs to adjust, and the adjustments should be made before the performance and not during.  The dynamics of the songs themselves don't change based on venue.   Plenty of musicians are guilty of mixing rather than blending, which is probably what the group you mentioned before was having.
My brother is the drummer and he doesn't like it at all.  He brings his hi-hat and pedal from home and he hates the way the cymbals don't provide a subtle gradual sound.  We have a Yamaha DTXPRESS IV.

Everyone else, including me, loves it. The sound is great, even, deep, controllable, etc. 

I would say, if your sound guy is good at controlling the drums sound with the plastic wall dampers and the mic mix, then go for acoustic drums.  If sound guy is lacking (mine is, LOL) go for electronic, which helps control sound better.

While I agree that a bad sound guy can really mess up a drum mix, the choice between electric and acoustic should be based more around the drummer.  In most churches I know of, an acoustic kit without mics will do just fine with a decent drummer if you don't want the guy in the booth screwing things up.  If the drummer can't keep things under control, then there may be reason to look at the electric option.
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Kent Thompson

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Re: edrums acceptance?
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2011, 01:11:30 pm »

 It's all about choices.
 Would I rather have a bad sounding acoustical set or a mediocre electric set?
 Is the volume just too loud with acoustical set?
 You need to form your own set of questions to come up with the right answer.
 While I don't particularly care for electronic drums under the right circumstances I would take them over an acoustic set.
 If there are insurmountable (or impractical) obstacles in using an acoustical set then by all means go electronic.
 Something to keep in mind when shopping for electronic drums, like everything else in audio you get what you pay for.
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Rob Truesdell

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Re: edrums acceptance?
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2011, 03:22:27 am »

Hello everyone, first post. As a drummer Im not crazy about edrums but I do understand stage volume and dislike shields even more.
One of the issues I run across traveling from church to church in a traveling worship band is that the drums are really the wrong drumset for the venue.
Granted most of the churches we play in are rather small, I find most if not all the drumsets that are set on stage behind a drum shield are old 70's or 80's power drums. Large deep shells. One of the last sets had tom sizes of 12x10, 13x12 and a 16x16 and just about all the kick drums have been 18x22.

My personal set I use smaller toms and a kick. I also use cymbals with a fast decay. I feel that if a church would choose a drumset that would fit there church rather than let the drummer bring his old set in things would be much better.

I know it also its the drummer too, meaning the drummer really needs to loose the heavy large sticks and learn to play a bit softer but my point is mainly smaller shells really help in controlling the sound.

Most of these drumsets are not even mic'ed up sometimes too! Makes it hard for a fellow like me who plays soft, gets stuck in a shield and nobody can hear the drums. Seems to happen all the time. I even had the sound engineer speak into my head phones once saying "drummer, can you hit a littler harder now"!

Still, even if the drumset behind a shield is a nice quality tuned kit, the shield thing kills it for me. Im probably in the minority in my drumming style, I learned to play in a real small church vs the 80's power drummer plus I do enjoy the art of SR and know that sacrifices have to be made and for this drummer, give me the electrics over a shield!
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: edrums acceptance?
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2011, 09:08:20 am »

My brother is the drummer and he doesn't like it at all.  He brings his hi-hat and pedal from home and he hates the way the cymbals don't provide a subtle gradual sound.  We have a Yamaha DTXPRESS IV.

This begs the question, who is supposed to be in charge of the overall sound? I guess ultimately, its the WD, and that is only true as he is subject to the church goverence and The Lord. 

Hmm, interesting, the drummer and even the sound guy are so far down the list that they didn't get mentioned. ;-) 

I know that as sound guy I sometimes tend to get caught up in refining subtleties that no board member ever notices. I know that there is a ton of subtlety that never makes it out of the Orchestra pit. 

In the end any other idea that "I've got to sound good to me" is just pride.
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drew gandy

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Re: edrums acceptance?
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2011, 10:09:24 pm »

My thoughts on the topic (for whatever its worth).

A) My experience has shown that the better the band, the less I have to do (as a sound guy) during the course of the performance.  I think this has as much to do with the arrangements of the music as it does the dynamics of the musicians but both play heavily into it. 

B) When a drum shield is mildly effective, and that's typically the most we can hope for, it's usually because it makes the drummer play softer (it's much louder at the stool with that plexi around the set).  Some drummers don't respond to this and play just as hard or harder.  ymmv.

C) Electronic sets are usually awful horrid things.

1) Cheesy sounds
2) Mediocre drummers - it seems that electronic sets tend to inhibit a drummer's ability to learn nuance.  Not that electric guitar players don't have this problem as well;)
3) That terrible thwack sound that comes off the pads acoustically and masks the actual sound of the sample.
4) Pathetic monitoring that keeps the drummer from hearing even a semblance of what they're actually contributing to the mix. 

drew
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Remember, you can talk yourself into (or out of) anything.  That's how the human brain works...

Michael Galica

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Re: edrums acceptance?
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2011, 12:17:17 pm »

C) Electronic sets are usually awful horrid things.

1) Cheesy sounds
2) Mediocre drummers - it seems that electronic sets tend to inhibit a drummer's ability to learn nuance.  Not that electric guitar players don't have this problem as well;)
3) That terrible thwack sound that comes off the pads acoustically and masks the actual sound of the sample.
4) Pathetic monitoring that keeps the drummer from hearing even a semblance of what they're actually contributing to the mix. 

drew

Drew, out of curiosity what electric drum kits have you worked with?  While they all have the "cheesy sounds", most modules also have some very legitimate drum sounds these days.  I'm also curious what "terrible thwack" you're mentioning.  Mesh head kits have very little acoustic noise, and even the kits with mylar or rubber have never interfered with my house mix.  Also, please expand on what constitutes "pathetic monitoring".  I'm unclear on why that is the fault of the edrums and not the sound system/tech.

As to the "mediocre drummers" part, I think that's an issue regardless of acoustic or electric.  It's the "oOo thing.  I hit! *bam*" experience.  I've run into many more drummers that just don't get that you can get different sounds/volumes by hitting the drum in a different spot.  Edrums by nature will have less variety of tone than acoustic drums, but (mine at least) still have a good amount you can do if you know how to create it.

I've said it before: edrums are to acoustic drums what a keyboard is to a piano.  The electronic version offers more options in creating sounds, but lacks the nuance and (usually) sound quality of the acoustic version.
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Mike Galica
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Taylor Phillips

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Re: edrums acceptance?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2011, 06:46:33 pm »

Drew, out of curiosity what electric drum kits have you worked with?  While they all have the "cheesy sounds", most modules also have some very legitimate drum sounds these days.  I'm also curious what "terrible thwack" you're mentioning.  Mesh head kits have very little acoustic noise, and even the kits with mylar or rubber have never interfered with my house mix.  Also, please expand on what constitutes "pathetic monitoring".  I'm unclear on why that is the fault of the edrums and not the sound system/tech.
Well, I'm not Drew, but  I've worked with a Roland TD-12 and a Yamaha DTXtreme II, both of which are pretty legit kits in the electronic drum world I would think, and never really found any sounds that weren't somewhat 'cheesy' in nature.  The Yamaha for the most part was less cheesy sounding than the Roland, but the mesh heads of the Roland were better liked than the rubber Yamahas.  While the 'thwack' sound isn't going to interfere with your house mix unless you mix the drums way too quiet, it can drive the musicians on stage a bit crazy.  I also understand where Drew is coming from on the monitoring.  Using wedges and trying to keep the stage volume down, the aforementioned 'thwack' can sometimes overshadow the sound of the drums to the drummer.  Trying to get it loud enough for him to hear the nuances that are there, it's like having an acoustic kit on stage.  Switching to an acoustic kit recently I've seen this first hand, since the drums in my board mix going from electric to acoustic are at the same level - they just sound better - and the wedge mixes are much cleaner since I don't have to send any drum signal to them.  I had to turn the e-drums up quite a bit in the wedges for the musicians start to feel the beat.
Quote
I've said it before: edrums are to acoustic drums what a keyboard is to a piano.  The electronic version offers more options in creating sounds, but lacks the nuance and (usually) sound quality of the acoustic version.
While I accompanied a choir in college, I absolutely hated having to play on the keyboard when we did shows.  I had to for several shows off campus, but when the college theater had loaned out their Steinway for some event on the other side of campus that was the same day as our concert, I, with the help of a couple other guys, pushed the old upright from the directors office down the street a block to the theater so I could play on a real piano.  With keyboards, the sound is pretty good, though it's still a bit of trouble to get the sound right, the problem I have with them is feel.  Practicing on the Yamaha baby grand in the choir room, the uprights in the practice rooms and occasionally the theater's Steinway, meant that I had no real feel for how to play the keyboard and the director could really tell that I struggled to get the music right on it.  So, yeah, I guess you're right.  :)
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Brad Weber

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Re: edrums acceptance?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2011, 11:04:54 am »

Just some general observations.  First, it sounds like many times the perception of shields/enclosures and e-drums versus acoustic kits is the result of a combination of multiple factors that sometimes end up all being assigned to one.  A poor shield setup leading to poor results may give the perception that shields in general are bad.  Use a less than optimal e-drums rig along with poor monitoring and the perception could end up being that e-drums are always bad.  Use the wrong acoustic kit with a lesser musician and the resulting perception may be that acoustic drums are generally bad.  The results with, and perception of, every one of these concepts or approaches is dependent on not just implementing the general concept, but also on how they are implemented.  It seems that too many people tend to gain a less than favorable perception of a concept or approach based on a single experience with a specific, and often less than optimal, implementation when it may be the implementation rather than the concept that is the greatly what is being assessed.
 
This is a generalization, however I have found that drummers that can readily adapt their playing to varying situations are typically better at adpating to, and more willing to try, e-drums.  It's not necessarily that they prefer them but rather simply that they are better able to adapt.  Conversely, drummers that have difficulty varying or adapting their playing in general may struggle with any changes, including e-drums.  The irony is that in some cases the players for whom the most benefit may be gained may be the very ones that are least comfortable with or most resistant to ideas such as using e-drums.
 
The human resources available to churches varies greatly.  I've worked with churches that have professional performers and technicians and with churches that can hold auditions within their own membership and get highly skilled personnel.  I've also worked with churches that struggle to get any performers and techs or that allow anyone who wishes to participate to do so.  Obviously this affects the viability and effectiveness of potential options and approaches.  Thus there is no one single answer or approach that necessarily applies to all churches, you have to look at the specific situation as other churches may not have the same situation as yours.
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Re: edrums acceptance?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2011, 11:04:54 am »


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