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Author Topic: Can an Avid Venue console write automation in Pro Tools?  (Read 9697 times)

Dany Meeuwissen

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Re: Can an Avid Venue console write automation in Pro Tools?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2011, 06:25:48 am »

vlammie, you're going to have to change your profile to use your real name; them's the rulz around here.

Oops, thanks for pointing out, I changed it.
The account registration thing is a bit different from the REP forum...

newbies! :-)
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Roland Clarke

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Re: Can an Avid Venue console write automation in Pro Tools?
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2011, 09:54:13 pm »

Erik,

Welcome to the group---your post encouraged me to sign up here as well :-)  I've been using the VENUE console since it first hit the market and urged my church to purchase one of the first Venue consoles in existence.  Since then Venue has gone from an actual console to a family of consoles including their newest board the SC48 (which one sets next to my desk at GC PRO in Atlanta--the outside professional division of Guitar Center).  Understand that the VENUE CONSOLE is a live sound console, it is not a control surface for Pro Tools---so one should feel deceived or think that AVID is behind.  While Pro Tools is amazing and re-wrote the entire industry for audio recording, VENUE has and is doing the same with the Venue console---but not everyone using Venue needs Pro Tools, although even those users are starting to see the value.

To the poster about the DM2000---the DM2000 is NOT a live console, it's a studio console--which is why Yamaha later came out with the M7CL, for those using the dM2000 in a live environment.  I have used the DM2000 live and in the studio, it's no Venue console---then again, Venue is no DM2000 either--they are radically different animals.  I've used Venue for FOH, monitors, Broadcast television, location recording, etc. and I can tell you there's really nothing like it when you need the integration with Pro Tools.  It's also my favorite console to install with my own clients because of the Virtual Soundcheck allowing one to really dial in a dynamite mix during down time, and have that ready to go when the show is on.

I've sold more consoles than most of those in this business, but I'm a user myself. Feel free to email me directly at   blyons@gcpro.com   with any specific questions and I'd be happy to answer them for you.

Brad Lyons
www.theaudioprofessional.com
GC PRO Account Manager
404.844.9758

Brad,
First off "Welcome to the group---your post encouraged me to sign up here as well"?????
Well, Brad, welcome to the group.

I would not say that PT "re-wrote the entire industry for audio recording" neither would I say that "...VENUE has and is doing the same with the Venue console" (I assume you meant in live sound mixing).  In many area's I believe that AVID is really behind the curve.  For instance, when will AVID create the ability to actually split the digital I/O and allow the FOH and Monitor desks to both digitally link to the same stage boxes?  Many recording systems are of higher quality than PT and many consoles sound better, offer more features and still offer a virtual sound check capability.
The correct system for the individual is determined by picking the correct tool for the job at hand.

Some of the critical factors for determining a best fit for a live sound console are going to be (in no particular order):
required I/O and format
number of busses
simultaneously available faders
ability to have offline editing
rider acceptance
sound quality
Sample rate capability
and many more

For broadcast consoles (depending on your actual broadcast needs such as multiple mix stems, etc.) there are far better choices on the market.  Depending on your needs and budget range check on Studer Vista series, various Euphonix options, Smart AV, DIGICO and others.


Your post sounds like a Digidesign sales brochure and it seems like you are trolling for business, strictly forbidden on the forums.


Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Hi Lee, I think you might be being a little harsh on Brad, I've seen many of his posts on this and the Avid forums and he is a good guy, enthusiastic and generous with his advice.

As to your point about Pro Tools and Venue I think that there are a few places where you are missing the point.  Whether we like it or not, Pro Tools has pretty much redefined the recording industry, particularly in the way that they were the first widely available, practical system for recording and mixing in the box, sound quality, well I think there has been enough evidence to show that pretty much all DAW's do sound the same give or take the AD conversion, furthermore I would cite that almost every record that hits the billboard 100 will have been "Pro Tooled" too a lessor or greater degree, at some stage or another.

Moving over to Avid's Venue consoles, Sound quality has been debated about one console over another in this field.  Personally having heard and used many different digital consoles, I don't hear an awful lot of difference between them in terms of "sound quality", however, many of them have suffered with poor quality on board effects.  Almost every time I see someone out with A, B, C,'s digital board, there is a rack with a certain amount of "outboard", usually this isn't the case with those who use Venue's.  the fact that certain other manufacturers are desperately procuring well known flavours of "plug in's" for their own consoles, would suggest that they think Avid have got it right.  Other consoles, now often include "virtual souncdcheck", Venue did it first. 

Like it or not, Venue's are very rider friendly, have a huge roster of "A" list acts specing and using them and are probably the best selling console in their class.  Of course there are always improvements to be made, however, you have to consider that the Venue is also a 6 year old product and the fact athat it still does things that it's competitors don't, suggests that they are very much up with the game.

I'm sorry this has rather drifted off topic.  Too the original poster, Venue's ability to write automtaion in protools is limited too, as mentioned above, scene changes using markers set using Venue Link.  I believe that controling Pro Tools using an Icon or D Command, automation can be written on the fly.  I did hear of a location truck in the USA doing exactly this.  I would speculate that it would be possible to have both a Venue supplying the audio to a Pro Tools set up and then an icon (or other Pro Tools control surface,) mixing the project.  I have mixed on the desk by reversing the inputs and using Virtual Soundcheck mode, if I desperately needed to automate something, I automate on the Pro Tools, it's a fudge, but it works fine for my needs.
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Ryan O John

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Re: Can an Avid Venue console write automation in Pro Tools?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2011, 01:56:52 am »

We are thinking about purchasing a Venue Mix Rack console with Pro Tools cards as a Broadcast mix console.  Can anybody tell me if Pro Tools will write the automation (fader moves, etc.) from the live mix into the tracks so that you can start post production right where you left off the night of the show?

Thanks
Erik

can you not set up the desk to output midi data of the fader position etc..?
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Can an Avid Venue console write automation in Pro Tools?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2011, 11:55:42 am »

Hi Lee, I think you might be being a little harsh on Brad, I've seen many of his posts on this and the Avid forums and he is a good guy, enthusiastic and generous with his advice.

As to your point about Pro Tools and Venue I think that there are a few places where you are missing the point.  Whether we like it or not, Pro Tools has pretty much redefined the recording industry, particularly in the way that they were the first widely available, practical system for recording and mixing in the box, sound quality, well I think there has been enough evidence to show that pretty much all DAW's do sound the same give or take the AD conversion, furthermore I would cite that almost every record that hits the billboard 100 will have been "Pro Tooled" too a lessor or greater degree, at some stage or another.

Moving over to Avid's Venue consoles, Sound quality has been debated about one console over another in this field.  Personally having heard and used many different digital consoles, I don't hear an awful lot of difference between them in terms of "sound quality", however, many of them have suffered with poor quality on board effects.  Almost every time I see someone out with A, B, C,'s digital board, there is a rack with a certain amount of "outboard", usually this isn't the case with those who use Venue's.  the fact that certain other manufacturers are desperately procuring well known flavours of "plug in's" for their own consoles, would suggest that they think Avid have got it right.  Other consoles, now often include "virtual souncdcheck", Venue did it first. 

Like it or not, Venue's are very rider friendly, have a huge roster of "A" list acts specing and using them and are probably the best selling console in their class.  Of course there are always improvements to be made, however, you have to consider that the Venue is also a 6 year old product and the fact athat it still does things that it's competitors don't, suggests that they are very much up with the game.

I'm sorry this has rather drifted off topic.  Too the original poster, Venue's ability to write automtaion in protools is limited too, as mentioned above, scene changes using markers set using Venue Link.  I believe that controling Pro Tools using an Icon or D Command, automation can be written on the fly.  I did hear of a location truck in the USA doing exactly this.  I would speculate that it would be possible to have both a Venue supplying the audio to a Pro Tools set up and then an icon (or other Pro Tools control surface,) mixing the project.  I have mixed on the desk by reversing the inputs and using Virtual Soundcheck mode, if I desperately needed to automate something, I automate on the Pro Tools, it's a fudge, but it works fine for my needs.

If I was overly harsh I apologize for it.  The post still sounds like a Digidesign sales brochure to me and it did not address the OP's question.  Anytime we answer a question that has not been fully fleshed out yet with a response like "It's my favorite console to install with my clients..." that makes warning bells go off for me.  I have no favorite console for my clients.  I need to first find out their needs before I can determine the best option for them.

I stick by my comment that ProTools did not redefine the recording industry.  It is the most popular platform, in this country, for top 40 music.  That does not make it the best.  It is not the most popular in other countries or in markets outside of top 40.  There are many better sounding systems.  Every top recording producer/engineer that I have spoken with about DAW's (this is quite a substantial list) says that they need to use PT in some studio's/situations but, they each prefer other DAW's if it is up to them to choose. 
If I take the complete package from the same BWAV tracks loaded in the DAW through to digital output's, PT consistently has good stereo width, between the speakers, but no depth or space.  Yes, I have put systems side by side, identical tracks, mixed in the box for different DAW's.  All fed through a Euphonix Fusion.  Every time, with different initial tracks, the PT mixes exhibit these same sonic characteristic.  SADIE and Nuendo both have exhibited a much greater sense of space and depth of image as well as better width in side by side comparisons with PT.  Good mixes on PT always sound good between the speakers but the others against which I have done direct comparison make the speakers disappear.
I don't think PT systems sound bad, just that other systems definitely have sounded better in these side by side listening comparisons.


As far as the OP's question, they asked if they SHOULD BUY a Venue for mixing their broadcast feed and could it write automation to PT.  The answer would be, there are many better options to accomplish this.  If they already had a Venue and were trying to make it work without a lot of other expense then, yes, possibly MIDI or some other options could be utilized to write automation but Venue only really addresses live mixing, definitely not recording with simultaneous tracking of automation, as the OP asked.  It also will not allow for simultaneous mix-down to 2 track or to multiple simultaneous stems.  It also does not answer the needs for theatre mixing or for broadcast consoles.  If going with PT as the recording platform then a great option would be one of the Euphonix options with Eucon control or possibly D-Show (although I have not used it in that scenario so would have to look at the precise needs).  You could also look at Smart AV for a similar result to Euphonix with Eucon.  If you need a console rather than a control surface then the Vista 9 is certainly a top contender as is the Digico SD7B or a control surface with I/O such as the Euphonix Fusion or the Smart A/V although at a much higher price point than any of the Venues.  Each of these options would also work very well with other DAWs, your choice. 

Best DAW to choose, the one that you work in best as far as work flow goes.  If it gets out of your way and let's you mix in more fluidly/smoothly you'll do better with it.
I use PT and Venues, I spec them into designs, when appropriate, I don't arbitrarily pick any DAW or console I ask the appropriate questions and specify what is right for the particular job or client.

Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
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Roland Clarke

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Re: Can an Avid Venue console write automation in Pro Tools?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2011, 10:49:03 am »

I stick by my comment that ProTools did not redefine the recording industry.  It is the most popular platform, in this country, for top 40 music.  That does not make it the best.  It is not the most popular in other countries or in markets outside of top 40.  There are many better sounding systems.  Every top recording producer/engineer that I have spoken with about DAW's (this is quite a substantial list) says that they need to use PT in some studio's/situations but, they each prefer other DAW's if it is up to them to choose. 
If I take the complete package from the same BWAV tracks loaded in the DAW through to digital output's, PT consistently has good stereo width, between the speakers, but no depth or space.  Yes, I have put systems side by side, identical tracks, mixed in the box for different DAW's.  All fed through a Euphonix Fusion.  Every time, with different initial tracks, the PT mixes exhibit these same sonic characteristic.  SADIE and Nuendo both have exhibited a much greater sense of space and depth of image as well as better width in side by side comparisons with PT.  Good mixes on PT always sound good between the speakers but the others against which I have done direct comparison make the speakers disappear.
I don't think PT systems sound bad, just that other systems definitely have sounded better in these side by side listening comparisons.

I understand your point of view, however, I don't think that it is just in the States, here in the UK Pro Tools is the major tool for pro music recording.  Products like Sadie, Nuendo, etc may very well do the job, but the majority of those earning the serious wedge in this business are still on PT.  For all the other systems in the industry, PT was there first.  I remember doing my first NLE CD edit with a digidesign system on an Atari and it wasn't a pretty thing to use, but at the time there wasn't another option.


Quote
As far as the OP's question, they asked if they SHOULD BUY a Venue for mixing their broadcast feed and could it write automation to PT.  The answer would be, there are many better options to accomplish this.  If they already had a Venue and were trying to make it work without a lot of other expense then, yes, possibly MIDI or some other options could be utilized to write automation but Venue only really addresses live mixing, definitely not recording with simultaneous tracking of automation, as the OP asked.  It also will not allow for simultaneous mix-down to 2 track or to multiple simultaneous stems.  It also does not answer the needs for theatre mixing or for broadcast consoles.  If going with PT as the recording platform then a great option would be one of the Euphonix options with Eucon control or possibly D-Show (although I have not used it in that scenario so would have to look at the precise needs).  You could also look at Smart AV for a similar result to Euphonix with Eucon.  If you need a console rather than a control surface then the Vista 9 is certainly a top contender as is the Digico SD7B or a control surface with I/O such as the Euphonix Fusion or the Smart A/V although at a much higher price point than any of the Venues.  Each of these options would also work very well with other DAWs, your choice. 

Best DAW to choose, the one that you work in best as far as work flow goes.  If it gets out of your way and let's you mix in more fluidly/smoothly you'll do better with it.
I use PT and Venues, I spec them into designs, when appropriate, I don't arbitrarily pick any DAW or console I ask the appropriate questions and specify what is right for the particular job or client.

Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

I would be inclined to agree that purely as a broadcasting mixer there are possibly better options out there.  I love the Stider Vistas, but they are in a different league price wise.  An Icon based system would (IMHO) prove an interesting choice.  Smart AV, as interesting as it is, is both expensive and a little bit hit and miss, it is after all only a controller and very much depends on the software you are running.

One point I would make, is that you are incorrect about the ability of Venue to produce a two track mix or stems.  All systems with HDX are capable of 16 assignable tracks (32 on larger systems) in addition to the one track per input used for "Virtual Soundcheck".

Regards


Roland
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Can an Avid Venue console write automation in Pro Tools?
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2011, 01:54:25 pm »


One point I would make, is that you are incorrect about the ability of Venue to produce a two track mix or stems.  All systems with HDX are capable of 16 assignable tracks (32 on larger systems) in addition to the one track per input used for "Virtual Soundcheck".

Regards

Roland

Unless something new is going on that I have not seen with the Venue line then I am not incorrect but I may not have explained fully enough.
You can't have stems/mixes creating multiple simultaneous independent mixes for different formats with entirely different eq/processing on each.  I don't know the OP needs but we routinely need two different stereo mixes, one 5.1 mix and occasionally some others as well in addition to our multitrack feeds.
In addition, we don't ever run below 88.2kHz sample rate so that knocks the Venue series out for our use.

Lee Buckalew
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Roland Clarke

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Re: Can an Avid Venue console write automation in Pro Tools?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2011, 03:53:08 am »


Unless something new is going on that I have not seen with the Venue line then I am not incorrect but I may not have explained fully enough.
You can't have stems/mixes creating multiple simultaneous independent mixes for different formats with entirely different eq/processing on each.  I don't know the OP needs but we routinely need two different stereo mixes, one 5.1 mix and occasionally some others as well in addition to our multitrack feeds.
In addition, we don't ever run below 88.2kHz sample rate so that knocks the Venue series out for our use.

Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Well there are of course some limitations to mixes (you couldn't necessarily have channel eq different for each, although you could double assign) however overall eq and dynamics for individual mixes is possible, and 5.1 (although potentially possible) would be a work around situation.  88.2 is off the table certainly, unless there is a major change to the software. 

Out of interested in what type of work you are doing that requires all the above formats simultaniously and what console are you presently using to do all this with?

Regards


Roland
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Can an Avid Venue console write automation in Pro Tools?
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2011, 06:58:40 pm »

Out of interested in what type of work you are doing that requires all the above formats simultaniously and what console are you presently using to do all this with?

Regards


Roland

Roland,
Sorry, it's been awhile since I've been able to respond.  The location where I do broadcast mixing is one of the major symphony orchestra's in the U.S.  We currently multi-track everything direct to disc at a minimum 96kHz/24bit plus simultaneously record a high res (96k/24bit) two track mixdown.  We also run the same mixdown feed to a broadcast board for both radio and internet live broadcast. We are routinely asked to also provide feeds for broadcast television at the same time as we are feeding a radio mix.  We were just asked to consider providing a surround mix as well so...
We are in the middle of planning our upgrades which will require: 
minimum 96 channels at 96k/24bit (preferable 192/24)
     48 AES mic pre's will split direct to disc plus direct to a mixing console, 48 additional console inputs for the multitrack returns
     We require 26 additional AES inputs (or 13 pair) for: 2 track HD return, 6 track HD return, 2 track radio return, 6 track radio return,
     2 track reverb (Bricasti M7), 6 track reverb return, 2 track CD return

Output needs are:
48 tracks for multi-track output should we choose to route that way in the future.
2 track HD, 6 track HD, 2 track Radio, 6 track Radio, 2 track reverb, 6 track reverb, 2 track TV mix, 6 track TV mix, 2 track backstage mix

There are additional needs for some other minimal analogue I/O but not much.  All mic pre's are external Grace, Millennia, etc.

Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
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Roland Clarke

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Re: Can an Avid Venue console write automation in Pro Tools?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2011, 10:34:42 am »

Personally, I doubt that the Venue would be right for you.  On the other hand a Studer Vista would probably fit the bill.  You could do this all on Pro Tools with an Icon, however, Pro Tools isn't great for classical edits, much better to track with Pyramix, that would certainly handle your needs.  This set-up isn't a lot different from that at the Royal Opera House in London.  I've had the occasion to use their room with a Vista 8 and Pyramix (I have both Pyramix and Pro Tools set-up's of my own).  I have to say that I liked the Studer mic amp's, very clean, certainly well up to the job.

Roland
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Can an Avid Venue console write automation in Pro Tools?
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2011, 11:59:40 am »

Personally, I doubt that the Venue would be right for you.  On the other hand a Studer Vista would probably fit the bill.  You could do this all on Pro Tools with an Icon, however, Pro Tools isn't great for classical edits, much better to track with Pyramix, that would certainly handle your needs.  This set-up isn't a lot different from that at the Royal Opera House in London.  I've had the occasion to use their room with a Vista 8 and Pyramix (I have both Pyramix and Pro Tools set-up's of my own).  I have to say that I liked the Studer mic amp's, very clean, certainly well up to the job.

Roland

Roland,
We don't use ProTools anywhere in the chain for our symphonic work.  A Venue would absolutely be out of the question since it can't handle any sample rate higher than 48kHz and it can't handle the I/O requirement that we have.

The short list of consoles being considered is:  Euphonix S5 Fusion, Studer Vista 9, Digico SD7. 
None would utilize onboard (or manufacturer provided) mic pre's, all would be external mic pre's (Grace M802 with digital option and remote control, Millennia HV3r with digital option and PC control, occasionally some Avalon or other pre's that would need to link in analogue).  Pre's will be remotely mounted so we can achieve much shorter mic cable runs.
All pre's will be split to the console and the multitrack so the two feeds are separate.  The console would be utilized only to create our various broadcast mixes and splits while the multitrack feeds would split pre-console. 
We multitrack to Cubase and record the high res 2 track in Wavelab.  Following each concert the high res recording is converted to MP3 (I know but, size wise it's required) and uploaded to an FTP site where each of the orchestra's musicians can log in and listen to each concert for review.  We also feed a 2 track split out to HHB recorders so that we can provide the conductor, any soloists and an archive CD immediately following each concert. 
Editing happens either in Nuendo or SADiE depending upon the specific needs.

Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
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