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[Dan Mortensen]

I realized not long after getting my first digital consoles that there were mysterious (to me) forces at work with the consoles and their interconnections that were not at all intuitive to me but which could easily (and mysteriously) sabotage my best efforts at providing the right gear for the gig and having that gig go smoothly from start to finish, and next time, too.

Much longer ago than that, I realized that if those goals were to be met as a system provider I'd have to routinely fork over much more than US$1k at a time to have gear that would do what I needed it to do, and to have equivalent spares available at the gig in case the first choice gear died or malfunctioned in a serious way. And the corollary, a $1k or even a $5k error in deciding what was necessary was not significant in the long term.

Putting those two concepts together made me feel that even though I wouldn't use it daily or weekly, having appropriate test equipment to determine if critical pieces of gear were actually functional or only visually functionsal (two very different things!) would be similarly critical to gig success.

Putting those concepts together made it easy to first spend about $300 (at the time) for the Byte Brothers' piece, and then a few years later when I got tired of spending repeated minutes on tests that the DTX could do in seconds, it was easier to relieve my temporal frustration with a 3x the Byte Brothers (at the time)  and get the Ideal Signaltek II to make the same tests go quicker. It also gives a second opinion, which is also nice, because if they're both in agreement about something REALLY critical it's comforting, since I can't see, hear, touch, taste, or smell the potential problems in that area, or, more relevantly, measure them with an ohmmeter or an FFT that is special-built for audio.

I can't help but be reminded by this thread of a couple of books I've read that have been (hopefully) influential on my thinking: the 1840's(?) "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds," by Charles Mackay, and the much more recent takeoff on that book called "The Delusions of Crowds: Why People Go Mad in Groups," by William J. Bernstein.

Both books tell you how people get fixated on something that is objectively crazy, like the astronomical value of tulips or some other mundane commodity or object, or the exceptional worth of an obvious swindler and con-man or some other hero of the day, and are able to discount or ignore any contrary evidence that would make them think twice or three times about getting swept up in the mania that is only too obvious later.

This thread is a much lesser version of that, except to point out that there's just no arguing with some people.

That also became clear when the cheap digital consoles (Behringer) came out, which negated the need for outboard racks that approached or exceeded the cost of the previous consoles, and people argued against the need to have a spare digital console on hand at gigs because of the excessive cost.

In my experience, when the digital console stops working, for whatever reason, the gig is over. IMO the gig should not be over due to 1 piece of gear dying, since all gear dies eventually and who knows in advance if today is the death day.

Other people fundamentally and strongly feel differently, and there's no point in arguing that another $3k will save you and your reputation in that situation. I'll add that I've never found that NOT spending $3k actually made the gig better, although there have been situations when that particular $3k would have been better spent on something else. But it still got spent, along with many other $3k's and most cases have been for the better.

I think that's about all I'm going to have to say about this subject in this context.

[Bob Stone]

I realized not long after getting my first digital consoles that there were mysterious (to me) forces at work with the consoles and their interconnections that were not at all intuitive to me but which could easily (and mysteriously) sabotage my best efforts at providing the right gear for the gig and having that gig go smoothly from start to finish, and next time, too.

Much longer ago than that, I realized that if those goals were to be met as a system provider I'd have to routinely fork over much more than US$1k at a time to have gear that would do what I needed it to do, and to have equivalent spares available at the gig in case the first choice gear died or malfunctioned in a serious way. And the corollary, a $1k or even a $5k error in deciding what was necessary was not significant in the long term.

Putting those two concepts together made me feel that even though I wouldn't use it daily or weekly, having appropriate test equipment to determine if critical pieces of gear were actually functional or only visually functionsal (two very different things!) would be similarly critical to gig success.

Putting those concepts together made it easy to first spend about $300 (at the time) for the Byte Brothers' piece, and then a few years later when I got tired of spending repeated minutes on tests that the DTX could do in seconds, it was easier to relieve my temporal frustration with a 3x the Byte Brothers (at the time)  and get the Ideal Signaltek II to make the same tests go quicker. It also gives a second opinion, which is also nice, because if they're both in agreement about something REALLY critical it's comforting, since I can't see, hear, touch, taste, or smell the potential problems in that area, or, more relevantly, measure them with an ohmmeter or an FFT that is special-built for audio.

I can't help but be reminded by this thread of a couple of books I've read that have been (hopefully) influential on my thinking: the 1840's(?) "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds," by Charles Mackay, and the much more recent takeoff on that book called "The Delusions of Crowds: Why People Go Mad in Groups," by William J. Bernstein.

Both books tell you how people get fixated on something that is objectively crazy, like the astronomical value of tulips or some other mundane commodity or object, or the exceptional worth of an obvious swindler and con-man or some other hero of the day, and are able to discount or ignore any contrary evidence that would make them think twice or three times about getting swept up in the mania that is only too obvious later.

This thread is a much lesser version of that, except to point out that there's just no arguing with some people.

That also became clear when the cheap digital consoles (Behringer) came out, which negated the need for outboard racks that approached or exceeded the cost of the previous consoles, and people argued against the need to have a spare digital console on hand at gigs because of the excessive cost.

In my experience, when the digital console stops working, for whatever reason, the gig is over. IMO the gig should not be over due to 1 piece of gear dying, since all gear dies eventually and who knows in advance if today is the death day.

Other people fundamentally and strongly feel differently, and there's no point in arguing that another $3k will save you and your reputation in that situation. I'll add that I've never found that NOT spending $3k actually made the gig better, although there have been situations when that particular $3k would have been better spent on something else. But it still got spent, along with many other $3k's and most cases have been for the better.

I think that's about all I'm going to have to say about this subject in this context.

Do you need a $3k spare console or will a $300 analog get you through the gig in an event of a failure?

What would be better to have, a $1000 tester and one proven cable....or a $100 tester and a primary, secondary, and backup cable and a backup for the backup and a few hundred bucks still in your pocket? Budgets aren't unlimited and there is diminishing returns the more you spend. If you're providing sound for Taylor Swift it's one thing, but for us lounge guys we need to be strategic about how we build a reliable rig. Given the likely failure modes of a cable are WAY more likely to be a physical problem than a data problem, I'll spend my money on having a backup cable or two long before I buy a tester. Not having lab level test gear can be mitigated by buying reputable brand name products that are surely to meet spec and being able to determine physical issues quickly.

I think some people here are losing sight of what is practical and what is completely overkill and a bad ROI.

[Mike Caldwell]

According to the supplier it is shielded - I have not confirmed personally. However they also claim it does NOT carry phantom power but it does so......
edit: I just realized that part could be true because my D Snake actually provides the phantom power so ignore that last part! LOL

There is no phantom power carried on a D Snake, is is provided directly from the stage box.

On a plus note the A&H D Snake lines are not anywhere close to as "picky" as the Berry AES50 lines are to work......and keep working.

[Dan Mortensen]

Do you need a $3k spare console or will a $300 analog get you through the gig in an event of a failure?

In my case, I'm being hired in most cases to bring the console that is necessary to perform the functions needed at the gig. For most digital console gigs, a $300 analog console, even in an emergency and especially without any outboard gear -since all "outboard" gear would have been lost with the demise of the single digital console on-hand-- would likely not get me hired again for that gig.

So, for me, yes, I need the $3000 digital console as a spare. And also, for me, even in a worst case the $3000 digital console is a pittance compared to what the former analog console(s) and outboard gear and outboard gear interconnects cost at the time and would cost now (discounting the fact I still have the outboard gear but not in racks which have been repurposed anyway). Even a $2000 analog console by itself would not have the necessary features for a gig without the outboard gear, and why would I take up three or more times as much truck space for a spare analog rig when I could have a spare digital console for only a duplicate of the main console?

For the rest of your questions/comments, that all depends on how you feel about your work, which can only be answered by you, meaning the reader, and how important it is to have a real spare vs. a "spare" that is completely inadequate to the task.

[Bob Stone]

In my case, I'm being hired in most cases to bring the console that is necessary to perform the functions needed at the gig. For most digital console gigs, a $300 analog console, even in an emergency and especially without any outboard gear -since all "outboard" gear would have been lost with the demise of the single digital console on-hand-- would likely not get me hired again for that gig.

So, for me, yes, I need the $3000 digital console as a spare. And also, for me, even in a worst case the $3000 digital console is a pittance compared to what the former analog console(s) and outboard gear and outboard gear interconnects cost at the time and would cost now (discounting the fact I still have the outboard gear but not in racks which have been repurposed anyway). Even a $2000 analog console by itself would not have the necessary features for a gig without the outboard gear, and why would I take up three or more times as much truck space for a spare analog rig when I could have a spare digital console for only a duplicate of the main console?

For the rest of your questions/comments, that all depends on how you feel about your work, which can only be answered by you, meaning the reader, and how important it is to have a real spare vs. a "spare" that is completely inadequate to the task.

So you're telling me you literally couldn't get through a show reasonably well with say a simple 12 channel analog board and no outboard if your main board failed? Nobody needs all the bells and whistles to make a show go well, it certainly helps and makes it easier, but it's entirely possible to do even a full rock band without that stuff....but I guess some people here seem to measure how good they are by how much money they can spend on equipment.

[Chris Hindle]

So you're telling me you literally couldn't get through a show reasonably well with say a simple 12 channel analog board and no outboard if your main board failed? Nobody needs all the bells and whistles to make a show go well, it certainly helps and makes it easier, but it's entirely possible to do even a full rock band without that stuff....but I guess some people here seem to measure how good they are by how much money they can spend on equipment.

Not everyone is tasked with doing a "rock show".
Just sayin.
Chris.

[Debbie Dunkley]

There is no phantom power carried on a D Snake, is is provided directly from the stage box.

On a plus note the A&H D Snake lines are not anywhere close to as "picky" as the Berry AES50 lines are to work......and keep working.

I tend to refer to the stage box as a D Snake so I was making the same point as you- that my phantom power comes from my ‘stage box’ - not my console so the ethercon doesn’t have to transfer phantom power.

[Dan Richardson]

According to the supplier it is shielded - I have not confirmed personally. However they also claim it does NOT carry phantom power but it does so......
edit: I just realized that part could be true because my D Snake actually provides the phantom power so ignore that last part! LOL

They're referring to using it as a 4 channel audio snake with ethercon XLR adapters. If the shield isn't connected, it will still pass audio, but not phantom.

[Debbie Dunkley]

They're referring to using it as a 4 channel audio snake with ethercon XLR adapters. If the shield isn't connected, it will still pass audio, but not phantom.

I just checked mine and it IS shielded.

[Dan Richardson]

I just checked mine and it IS shielded.

Excellent. I was going off of the seller's description and some of the reviews, both of which say no phantom.

[ProSoundWeb Community]