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[George Reiswig]

I'm assuming this is kind of a Sound 101 level of question, so I'll put it here.

First, on the topic of delays on a channel. Not as an effect, but as a "correction:"
Suppose you have an outdoor stage, 40' wide, where the mains are set off to the ends and 5' in front of the stage. Then you have the drummer set up 15' back from the center of the stage front, and he's got a blistering snare. If you wanted to align the acoustic signal of the snare hit with when it comes out of the speakers, you've got some choices to make:
1. You could align as though you want it to correspond with when it reaches the front of the stage, so basically correct for 20' of difference between the snare and the theoretical line connecting the two speakers, 5' in front of the stage.
2. You could look at the hypotenuse instead, which would be as though the listeners were all pretty well looking at the stage from off to the side, or their view of the snare was obstructed by the speaker on their side. That delay would be more like 28'.
3. You could split that difference, or
4. You could ignore the theoretical problem and not delay it at all.

What is considered "best practice" in a situation like this?

Now for the panning question:

How do you experts pan your drums, if at all? Kick, snare and hi-hat centered, then maybe a wide pan that follows the visual (from the audience's POV) of the toms to get a bit of stereo? Or...?

[dave briar]

I'm assuming this is kind of a Sound 101 level of question, so I'll put it here.

First, on the topic of delays on a channel. Not as an effect, but as a "correction:"
Suppose you have an outdoor stage, 40' wide, where the mains are set off to the ends and 5' in front of the stage. Then you have the drummer set up 15' back from the center of the stage front, and he's got a blistering snare. If you wanted to align the acoustic signal of the snare hit with when it comes out of the speakers, you've got some choices to make:
1. You could align as though you want it to correspond with when it reaches the front of the stage, so basically correct for 20' of difference between the snare and the theoretical line connecting the two speakers, 5' in front of the stage.
2. You could look at the hypotenuse instead, which would be as though the listeners were all pretty well looking at the stage from off to the side, or their view of the snare was obstructed by the speaker on their side. That delay would be more like 28'.
3. You could split that difference, or
4. You could ignore the theoretical problem and not delay it at all.

What is considered "best practice" in a situation like this?

Now for the panning question:

How do you experts pan your drums, if at all? Kick, snare and hi-hat centered, then maybe a wide pan that follows the visual (from the audience's POV) of the toms to get a bit of stereo? Or...?

Personally I do option 1 — but recognize that everything is a compromise.

[Rick Earl]

I'm assuming this is kind of a Sound 101 level of question, so I'll put it here.

First, on the topic of delays on a channel. Not as an effect, but as a "correction:"
Suppose you have an outdoor stage, 40' wide, where the mains are set off to the ends and 5' in front of the stage. Then you have the drummer set up 15' back from the center of the stage front, and he's got a blistering snare. If you wanted to align the acoustic signal of the snare hit with when it comes out of the speakers, you've got some choices to make:
1. You could align as though you want it to correspond with when it reaches the front of the stage, so basically correct for 20' of difference between the snare and the theoretical line connecting the two speakers, 5' in front of the stage.
2. You could look at the hypotenuse instead, which would be as though the listeners were all pretty well looking at the stage from off to the side, or their view of the snare was obstructed by the speaker on their side. That delay would be more like 28'.
3. You could split that difference, or
4. You could ignore the theoretical problem and not delay it at all.

What is considered "best practice" in a situation like this?

Now for the panning question:

How do you experts pan your drums, if at all? Kick, snare and hi-hat centered, then maybe a wide pan that follows the visual (from the audience's POV) of the toms to get a bit of stereo? Or...?

If I delay, it is option 1, There are so many things to consider there, starting with the particulars of each venue.
As far as panning goes,  I don't, as only a minority of your audience gets the full effect, otherwise the people in house right never hear the floor tom.   I usually mix mono, if I want to add some space I might double mic a guitar and spread those mics out, or a few tricks with reverb, but otherwise keep it right down the center. 

[JohnReeve]

I've never seen anybody do that kind of delay, but the question makes me curious.

Maybe I can ask a couple of additional questions and other folks who know a lot here can correct my misunderstandings.

a) 20ms of delay is still in the hass effect so folks will still hear that as the same sound, right?  And with this specific sound we're mostly hearing a transient so there is less damage to be done by comb filtering the drums decay, which is mostly white noise... so there isn't really much to perceptual change in that time alignment?

b) if the drummer is sufficiently loud then there is often (at least in my limited experience) bunch of snare in the vocal mics... so, are you gonna delay those, too?

c) generally, outside the front of the stage, the PA is still gonna be much louder than the snare, right? And that much louder signal is going to mask the quieter direct acoustic signal everywhere but near the stage? So generally is it easier to fix small alignment issues by making the speaker the audience is hearing louder than some other source?  And does that fix the issue of which position in the audience you're correcting for?

[Mike Caldwell]

For what your talking about the delay is applied to the entire main output mix, maybe about 18ms in your case.

[Scott Bolt]

Option 1, and assume about 1 mSec delay for every foot difference between the drums and the FOH speakers (number of feet between the line between the 2 FOH speakers and the drum, not the literal distance on a straight line from the drum to the speakers).

Add an additional 1mSec (or 2) to account for the digital mixer processing delay. (And as Mike just posted, this is done on the main output).

This does help to tighten up the drum sound, but as you say, it is imperfect as the distance from each audience member to a speaker and to the drums varies depending on where they stand.  Shy of using headphones, this is the reality of live sound and the laws of physics.

I never pan the drums for the same reasons others have listed.

[Kevin Maxwell]

Option 1, and assume about 1 mSec delay for every foot difference between the drums and the FOH speakers (number of feet between the line between the 2 FOH speakers and the drum, not the literal distance on a straight line from the drum to the speakers).

Add an additional 1mSec (or 2) to account for the digital mixer processing delay. (And as Mike just posted, this is done on the main output).

This does help to tighten up the drum sound, but as you say, it is imperfect as the distance from each audience member to a speaker and to the drums varies depending on where they stand.  Shy of using headphones, this is the reality of live sound and the laws of physics.

I never pan the drums for the same reasons others have listed.

That should be take away 1ms or 2 to account for the delay that the processing will add.

Delaying the mains to the backline can really help to tighten everything up. At least it has worked great for me. I also am careful to do the best as I can to time align the Front Fills to the house system and put in them only what will be missing in that area.

[Peter Kowalczyk]

Drumset Delays are a fun thought experiment.

Delaying those signals in the PA back to their acoustic source can really help when the acoustic source sound is significant compared to the PA - e.g. smaller venues.  You can extrapolate this concept to backline amps as well.  I'll frequently delay the bass and guitar amps in the PA according to their distance from the downstage edge. 

Hwever, adding delay on input channels, esp. if those same channels are used for stage monitors (not split to a separate monitor console) can mess with musicians.  I had a bass player call me out on a ~5ms delay I had on his line...  wow.  I'd be very concerned with any input delays pushing 10ms...

On larger systems, esp. outdoors, I find the PA dominates and the acoustic stage sound is less significant, so delaying the PA to backline is less critical. 

In that case, I focus more on time aligning the different mics on the kit back to the Overheads. 
 - use a stereo bar to X/Y the overheads in a single spot
 - Measure from snare drum to OH, and apply that much delay to snare mic.
 - I'll often estimate delays for Toms, hat, kick... based on one snare measurement.  but you could measure those too...

.... I find this can really 'focus' the drum sound, when the ACOUSTIC drum sound is insignificant in the venue. 

so:  Acoustic sound is significant - delay the PA to the backline.
       Acoustic sound is insignificant - delay sources to each other on-stage.

... Anyway, thats what I've been experimenting with recently.  It can really make your head hurt if you start to consider every path from every source to every mic.  Yikes...

[Dave Garoutte]

b) if the drummer is sufficiently loud then there is often (at least in my limited experience) bunch of snare in the vocal mics... so, are you gonna delay those, too?

The vocal mics have some distance from the drums, so they are already delayed to some extent.  They are probably closer to the speaker plane than the drums.

[Kevin Maxwell]

I don't delay individual channels to the back line. I delay the main speakers to the back line. I have experimented by turning the delay on and off. With the delay off you hear the band and it is also coming out of the speakers. With the delay on the speakers aren't as obvious you just hear the band louder. Now the result is more beneficial with a band like a "Big Band" or sometimes referred to as a Jazz Orchestra. If you know what you are listening for you will notice how much smoother the transition is. But the average audience member just knows it sounds really good. And it works even outdoors for a rock concert. I do it all of the time.

 

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