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[Luke Geis]

Oh boy everybody... I try and get out, but they just pull me back in!

Been a while since I have really contributed to the forum, but as luck would have it, in my retirement, I land what could potentially be the biggest, most lucrative and dream worthy gig of my life!!! So guess that means I have to come back

After the " Pandemic " started, I pivoted out of sound engineering and into IT work. I started off working as a production manager for an event production company, but after long hors and roughly half the income than what I was making prior to the pandemic, I quickly tired and transitioned into an IT gig for a pretty large company. It pays great, is solid and i do well at the job for the level I am at. I'm not a Sys-Admin yet, but I play in AD and manage an MDM like one. Anyway, let's get on with the fun stuff.

Years ago ( like 10 years ago ) I did sound for a person ( NDA ) and they were impressed with my work. Last year I did sound for them again ( at a gig I had done for years, and continued to do for fun ), and they were again impressed with my work. They asked if I was interested in doing sound for them on a tour, and I said sure, thinking I would never hear back... If you could eat thoughts, I would be dead. Nearly a year later they call, and I tell them I am essentially retired, but let me see what they have in mind. Let's just say that 100% of people who have heard the deal, say I would be an idiot for not taking the offer. My wife who swore she would leave me if I toured again, said better say yes...

So, this artist wants me to be an A1 @ FOH, do their rehearsals, Tune-Up shows, and their Full tour. They told me to pick the Mixer, and PA of my choice and that the tune-up dates are for 3000-6000 cap venues, then the tour dates will of course be full sized 10k+ cap events. I have some ideas but want some feedback from others on what their experience is with some mixers and PA's that fit that bill. This will be a purchased PA system, so limited rentals, but will be renting in European dates.

First my do not want list. I know some may laugh, but I really don't want an Avid S6L; really great mixer, so long as it works... Actually not interested in Avid at all. It is a 14 piece band, and I don't feel a need to burn 96+ channels, so I am looking at smaller format mixers anyway. As for PA I am not interested in EAW, JBL, or RCF, I am looking to run in the L' Acoustics, D&B Audiotechnik, Martin, or Meyer families. I am most familiar with L' Acoustics and D&B. That simple really. We are doing 100% IEM's so I need a mixer that will accommodate that, and for PA, I am more interested in a medium format ( this is not a rock band, more R&B/Pop ).

What I am looking at:

Allen & Heath Avantis, not first choice, but it honestly has enough, and I can get four of them for less than a single Avid S6L; which WILL stop working at some point. I have worked with an Avid S6L 5 times and there was only one instance where a backup wasn't needed... My main is honestly a Digico Quantum 225. It does what it needs to do. If they will allow it, an SD12 would be my first choice. I'm semi worried about availability in foreign countries, but I feel those two options have enough, will be reliable, and easy enough to acquire.  If you have any thoughts and or suggestions let me know.

As for PA, I am more or less leaning towards the L' Acoustics Kiva II, or their L System ( totally different fields I know ). I like the D&B V12 & Y12 series, or another choice would be the Meyer Leopard, or the Martin WPC. I have worked with the older Martin W8L and loved those, but time has passed... For the L' Acoustics L system it is more about scalability, I can run a two box, or a four box system and have my needs covered; and then some. Not only that, I like the Point source type of thing it has going for it ( yes I know, it is not actually a PS rig ).

I am very interested in reading others' ideas on what they may choose for this type of thing. I know what I would like, but I am looking for options I may have out of my periphery.

[Scott Holtzman]

Oh boy everybody... I try and get out, but they just pull me back in!

Been a while since I have really contributed to the forum, but as luck would have it, in my retirement, I land what could potentially be the biggest, most lucrative and dream worthy gig of my life!!! So guess that means I have to come back

After the " Pandemic " started, I pivoted out of sound engineering and into IT work. I started off working as a production manager for an event production company, but after long hors and roughly half the income than what I was making prior to the pandemic, I quickly tired and transitioned into an IT gig for a pretty large company. It pays great, is solid and i do well at the job for the level I am at. I'm not a Sys-Admin yet, but I play in AD and manage an MDM like one. Anyway, let's get on with the fun stuff.

Years ago ( like 10 years ago ) I did sound for a person ( NDA ) and they were impressed with my work. Last year I did sound for them again ( at a gig I had done for years, and continued to do for fun ), and they were again impressed with my work. They asked if I was interested in doing sound for them on a tour, and I said sure, thinking I would never hear back... If you could eat thoughts, I would be dead. Nearly a year later they call, and I tell them I am essentially retired, but let me see what they have in mind. Let's just say that 100% of people who have heard the deal, say I would be an idiot for not taking the offer. My wife who swore she would leave me if I toured again, said better say yes...

So, this artist wants me to be an A1 @ FOH, do their rehearsals, Tune-Up shows, and their Full tour. They told me to pick the Mixer, and PA of my choice and that the tune-up dates are for 3000-6000 cap venues, then the tour dates will of course be full sized 10k+ cap events. I have some ideas but want some feedback from others on what their experience is with some mixers and PA's that fit that bill. This will be a purchased PA system, so limited rentals, but will be renting in European dates.

First my do not want list. I know some may laugh, but I really don't want an Avid S6L; really great mixer, so long as it works... Actually not interested in Avid at all. It is a 14 piece band, and I don't feel a need to burn 96+ channels, so I am looking at smaller format mixers anyway. As for PA I am not interested in EAW, JBL, or RCF, I am looking to run in the L' Acoustics, D&B Audiotechnik, Martin, or Meyer families. I am most familiar with L' Acoustics and D&B. That simple really. We are doing 100% IEM's so I need a mixer that will accommodate that, and for PA, I am more interested in a medium format ( this is not a rock band, more R&B/Pop ).

What I am looking at:

Allen & Heath Avantis, not first choice, but it honestly has enough, and I can get four of them for less than a single Avid S6L; which WILL stop working at some point. I have worked with an Avid S6L 5 times and there was only one instance where a backup wasn't needed... My main is honestly a Digico Quantum 225. It does what it needs to do. If they will allow it, an SD12 would be my first choice. I'm semi worried about availability in foreign countries, but I feel those two options have enough, will be reliable, and easy enough to acquire.  If you have any thoughts and or suggestions let me know.

As for PA, I am more or less leaning towards the L' Acoustics Kiva II, or their L System ( totally different fields I know ). I like the D&B V12 & Y12 series, or another choice would be the Meyer Leopard, or the Martin WPC. I have worked with the older Martin W8L and loved those, but time has passed... For the L' Acoustics L system it is more about scalability, I can run a two box, or a four box system and have my needs covered; and then some. Not only that, I like the Point source type of thing it has going for it ( yes I know, it is not actually a PS rig ).

I am very interested in reading others' ideas on what they may choose for this type of thing. I know what I would like, but I am looking for options I may have out of my periphery.

Your just going to rent a tour pack right?  Whatever you like better but I would go with Digico or Yamaha.  A&H would be great and I would get a dLive but I don't know if you are going to find one on on dry lease. 


What does the monitor engineer want to do?  A copper split of one of the new gain sharing systems? 


For the PA I would get a K2 and just be done with it.  Will you have an SE on tour also?

[Tim McCulloch]

You are doing your artist a disservice to reject JBL VTX or A series.

I currently am Audio Janitor for an l'Acoustic K3/KS28 rig.  Perhaps it's because I don't speak AudioFrench, but I find myself disliking most of the system tuning tools, but perhaps that's because the only official training is in-person and the system owner hasn't been keen on sending me out for that training.  It's not a bad rig but not what I would have specified even if I liked the l'Acoustic ecosystem.

My experience with S6L has been mostly that the WAVES part of the package crashed.  Never had an issue with the console itself.  YMMV, etc.  Take a look at the PM7 Rivage, I think you'll like the way it sounds and so far maintain Yamaha's "it just works" tradition.

[Jason Raboin]

Sounds like a great opportunity. 

We have 4 Avantis and I love mixing on them.  But I wouldn't take one on a tour of that scale.  They have no redundancy in either power supplies or networked audio.  It's a $10k console for a reason.  If you like the AH stuff, go with Dlive S.  If you like Digico, why not get one?  The console cost is a rounding error on a tour playing 10k plus venues. 

For PA, you're not buying L-Acoustics L2 for fall 2024.  You might get K2 but it's unlikely. 

I'm curious why this would be a purchase rather than a rental from one of the usual suspects.  There's a reason Clair and the rest of them exist.  I have clients who consider purchasing parts of their system, but when asked where they're storing it, who's maintaining it, etc. they quickly come to realize why they're better off renting. 

[brian maddox]

There are SO many variables....

Purchasing a PA this size for a tour is an interesting choice, but....

I would spec a d&b rig of appropriate size and a Yamaha desk, preferably a PM5. Reason one is that these tools just work, and I hate tools that quit working. Also, d&b is everywhere in Europe and Rivage is quite common and/or you can console convert to CL5 for one or two dates and get by just fine.

I wouldn't run any outboard anything if you are renting on European dates. No Waves, no pesky analog gear. KISS principle.

Digico are obviously very prevalent worldwide as well, so if you prefer those, have at it.

And finally, a DLive rig can travel. Get the big 3500 surface for US shows and the baby 1500 surface for fly dates. That way it's always the same desk no matter where you go.

That being said, I'd still go Yamaha. But that's me....

[Art Welter]

I'm curious why this would be a purchase rather than a rental from one of the usual suspects.  There's a reason Clair and the rest of them exist.  I have clients who consider purchasing parts of their system, but when asked where they're storing it, who's maintaining it, etc. they quickly come to realize why they're better off renting.

Most artists are better off renting because they are not business oriented, don't have consistent career paths, crew and management.

Yanni purchased a complete L-ACOUSTICS V-DOSC system sometime last century, the cost savings of owning and maintaining it has easily amounted to millions of dollars over the decade(s) of use.









 

[Scott Holtzman]

You are doing your artist a disservice to reject JBL VTX or A series.

I currently am Audio Janitor for an l'Acoustic K3/KS28 rig.  Perhaps it's because I don't speak AudioFrench, but I find myself disliking most of the system tuning tools, but perhaps that's because the only official training is in-person and the system owner hasn't been keen on sending me out for that training.  It's not a bad rig but not what I would have specified even if I liked the l'Acoustic ecosystem.

My experience with S6L has been mostly that the WAVES part of the package crashed.  Never had an issue with the console itself.  YMMV, etc.  Take a look at the PM7 Rivage, I think you'll like the way it sounds and so far maintain Yamaha's "it just works" tradition.

I have yet to hear the A series but I was only saying you can't go wrong in that size gig with Kara2.  You can ground stack 2-4 on your subs at small venues and fly the whole rig for the larger ones. 


I have a new A1 working for me and this guy is awesome, been on tour with  a few decent acts and he brought me in on a some gigs with his old employer and I got to hear the K2.  I always liked Kara the K1 is even smoother but still has the blow the doors off output you need some time.  Power and grace is a nice combo.  He has the l'Acoustics training so I am very comfortable with his skills.  That's why I asked Luke if they were going to bring along an SE.


Scott

[Scott Holtzman]

Most artists are better off renting because they are not business oriented, don't have consistent career paths, crew and management.

Yanni purchased a complete L-ACOUSTICS V-DOSC system sometime last century, the cost savings of owning and maintaining it has easily amounted to millions of dollars over the decade(s) of use.

Yanni was a very stable artist so that was a good career choice.  He was married to that rich and beutiful soap actress so I think he had the cheez to fund the deal.


For those of us in the trenches that opportunity smells like a rental to me.


It's so funny to see everyone's preferences.  My love of L and Kara, Tim with JBL and Brian with D&B can't go wrong with any of those brands.  Choose a solid partner though.


I also want to make it clear I love Avantis (have one at my church) and DLive it just is non existent in the rental market.  I am not an Avid fan so the smaller Rivage or Digico are going to be the consoles most available in the rental market.  I actually only know one person in Wisconsin that rents his D-Live but he usually goes out with the console. 

[Tim McCulloch]

Yanni was a very stable artist so that was a good career choice.  He was married to that rich and beutiful soap actress so I think he had the cheez to fund the deal.


For those of us in the trenches that opportunity smells like a rental to me.


It's so funny to see everyone's preferences.  My love of L and Kara, Tim with JBL and Brian with D&B can't go wrong with any of those brands.  Choose a solid partner though.


I also want to make it clear I love Avantis (have one at my church) and DLive it just is non existent in the rental market.  I am not an Avid fan so the smaller Rivage or Digico are going to be the consoles most available in the rental market.  I actually only know one person in Wisconsin that rents his D-Live but he usually goes out with the console.

I'm very keen on the d&b workflow and products, too.  I like the sound of much of l'Acoustics products, what I don't care for is how they get from point A to point B.  That can be remedied with time and patience and money.

I'm not sure what *current* JBL products generate antipathy, but back in the VerTec days the issue was system owners who "cowboyed" their coverage and processing.  When JBL finally got to V4 presets and locked most of the important parameters from meddling system owners the damage of inconsistent rigs was done.  It helped that they got Line Array Calculator dialed in so the picture sounded like the PA.

And that validated the approach l'Acoustics took:  system owners must take training, limit the changes an SE or owner to only preset changes, and control gain staging and circuit power by requiring specific power amps, among a list of requirements.  Their goal was to give BEs world-wide, a consistent PA no matter where the system was located.  JBL pissed that away for too long.

My old boss was FOH for an international act "very popular with the scooter crowd" and bitched that every VerTec rig he mixed on sounded different.  When it was time to buy a line array for his shop... he ended up with VerTec.  I got a lot of miles out of those rigs and usually the BEs were complimentary.  "Best VerTec rig I've mixed on" and "you must have spent a lot of time working this rig."  Mostly I made the pretty pictures in the coverage calculator, put the PA up the way it said to, and powered it right.

Failure to correctly use a manufacturer's prediction software and configuration files will compromise any brand of system.

[Luke Geis]

Thank you all for your replies and input. I am on the same page for a lot of this. I too am not exactly sure why they want to buy, as we have not gotten that deep into conversation. I see it more as build us your wish list, and let's see what we can do. My understanding is that there is an eventual installation that they have planned for the equipment, so purchasing is part of that plan?

As for mixer choice, I am NOT a fan of Avid in any sense of teh imagination. I dislike Pro-Tools, and I don't see value in buying plug ins for a specific mixer, or other proprietary Hardware. I have had 4 shows where either faders have failed, and or the MB took a dookie with Avid S6L's... Maybe bad luck? I am not against the large format mixers by any means, but if this is a buy it all rig, then buying multiples of each mixer is going to set a red light really quick when they start getting into the $100k mark. But then again, maybe they expect that? I have no problem working with boards with even modest on-board features.

After a little more research, I am leaning more towards a Kara II rig. I have not met a LA rig yet that I have fallen in love with; the Martin W8LM was probably the most enjoyable TBH, but that is out of production.

I am on the hunt for a Systems tech/A2 as part of the team, not sure who the ME is yet, or how many A2's, or staff I will have at hand? Still in the preliminary stages of settling all that stuff in.

Keep em coming!!!

[ProSoundWeb Community]