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[Scott Bolt]

From a sonic standpoint, no question, IEM's are the way to go. But the majority of shows are small local bands, and very few of those have IEM's.

Another thing to consider - most of the gigs these smaller bands get don't have the budget for a sound man, so they "mix" from stage, hard enough with wedges, but nearly impossible with IEM's. So when these bands play a bigger gig with real sound, they are used to wedges and have zero experience with IEM's.

As both a musician and a sound guy, I'd love nothing better than to have  everyone on IEM's. But I realize it isn't gonna happen. I've even considered selling my IEM gear since it almost never gets used.

But back on topic.....band > arrangement > speakers/IEMs/sound guy > mics > console (effects quality) > etc > etc >preamps   or something like that.

I have been using IEM's since the mid 90's in my band.  A wired IEM setup is actually more cost effective (and smaller and lighter) than wedges.  Cost is one of the big reasons I hear bands say they aren't using IEM's.

To your point though, many bands (and some individual members) simply refuse to use IEM's as they don't hear "their tone".  I would argue that no one can get as good a mix from stage as can be achieved from out front.

I totally agree with your assessment:  "band > arrangement > speakers/IEMs/sound guy > mics > console (effects quality) > etc > etc >preamps"

[Russell Ault]

RE M32 and preamps. There is an audible difference between M32 with DL32 and M32 with DL251.
Haven't tried a X32 with DL251, but I suspect you'll find the same thing there.

The DSP on the X32 and M32 are nulls-to-zero identical, so whatever you've experienced with external I/O on an M32 will translate directly to an X32.

-Russ

[Mark Scrivener]

I have been using IEM's since the mid 90's in my band.  A wired IEM setup is actually more cost effective (and smaller and lighter) than wedges.  Cost is one of the big reasons I hear bands say they aren't using IEM's.

To your point though, many bands (and some individual members) simply refuse to use IEM's as they don't hear "their tone".  I would argue that no one can get as good a mix from stage as can be achieved from out front.

I totally agree with your assessment:  "band > arrangement > speakers/IEMs/sound guy > mics > console (effects quality) > etc > etc >preamps"

It's also faster to set up - and when you get to the gig (provided you brought your digital mixer and gave splits to the FOH or have your own guy running FOH), it instantly sounds like your rehearsal space! Rarely is there need for major adjustments - everything just sounds like it should (in the IEM's). I'll never forget my first IEM gig after rehearsing with the band using IEM's in the studio. Swore I'd never go back.....but then enter lots of jobs playing with various bands/artists who refuse to use IEMs, and I'm back to wedges.....arrrrggghhh

So to the OP - if you can convince the acts you work with to use IEMs it will make a huge difference, way more than any preamp upgrade.

[dave briar]

It's also faster to set up - and when you get to the gig (provided you brought your digital mixer and gave splits to the FOH or have your own guy running FOH), it instantly sounds like your rehearsal space! Rarely is there need for major adjustments - everything just sounds like it should (in the IEM's). I'll never forget my first IEM gig after rehearsing with the band using IEM's in the studio. Swore I'd never go back.....but then enter lots of jobs playing with various bands/artists who refuse to use IEMs, and I'm back to wedges.....arrrrggghhh

So to the OP - if you can convince the acts you work with to use IEMs it will make a huge difference, /way/ several orders of magnitude more than any preamp upgrade.

My $0.02.

[Caleb Dueck]

...if you can convince the acts you work with to use IEMs it will make a huge difference, way more than any preamp upgrade.

The trick is sorting between legitimate reasons versus excuses.  Choirs, and battle of the bands (each band walks up, plays one song, walks off), are legit reasons to use wedges.  Pretty much anything else is just an excuse, and needs to be called out as such.

*Self-mixing IEMs is easier than wedges, plus there's zero feedback. 
*Refusing to use IEMs due to "their tone" is false; IEM's mimic FOH sound better.
*Cost of IEM's can be better than wedges, unless they're sharing Seismic level mons.   

[Russell Ault]

{...}
*Refusing to use IEMs due to "their tone" is false; IEM's mimic FOH sound better.
{...}

If it only it were that simple. I was reminded recently that part of the challenge of dealing with electric guitar players is that, for many of them, "their tone" is what's coming out of the amp ~45° off-axis and at least 1m away, and what's being perceived by a typically-on-axis microphone (or the poor sods on house left, for that matter) "doesn't sound right" regardless of the fact that it's what the audience will actually be hearing. It's why many guitar players don't want their instrument in their wedge (and IEMs only make things that much worse).

I once had a loud-enough-that-the-drums-needed-reinforcement-in-a-smallish-venue guitar player explain to me that he once tried a tilt-back on his amp but it "really caused him some problems". Or there was the one who mentioned that he couldn't put the amp offstage somewhere and rely on his monitor mix instead because what comes out of the wedge "always sounds too harsh and it causes me to play timidly".

-Russ

[Mike Caldwell]

If it only it were that simple. I was reminded recently that part of the challenge of dealing with electric guitar players is that, for many of them, "their tone" is what's coming out of the amp ~45° off-axis and at least 1m away, and what's being perceived by a typically-on-axis microphone (or the poor sods on house left, for that matter) "doesn't sound right" regardless of the fact that it's what the audience will actually be hearing. It's why many guitar players don't want their instrument in their wedge (and IEMs only make things that much worse).

I once had a loud-enough-that-the-drums-needed-reinforcement-in-a-smallish-venue guitar player explain to me that he once tried a tilt-back on his amp but it "really caused him some problems". Or there was the one who mentioned that he couldn't put the amp offstage somewhere and rely on his monitor mix instead because what comes out of the wedge "always sounds too harsh and it causes me to play timidly".

-Russ

I've had similar conversations with guitar plays about about leaning their amp back on the amps built in kick back legs so they could actually hear their amp!

[Scott Bolt]

Loud acoustic drummers, and sadly (in my experience) most lead guitar players produce enough stage volume that it will muck up the mix in anything but a stadium sized stage (where everything can be spaced far apart to prevent the vocal mics from picking up the stage noise louder than the vocals).

My solution for my band was 2 fold:

1)  Replaced drummer with piccolo snare rim shot syndrome with a drummer with vDrums
2)  Replaced lead player with a lead player that would use IEM's (both of them) for practice and gigs.  Guitar amp plexiglass shield created to keep the amp direct sound out of the stage and audience.

Night and day difference in out front sound quality.  No amount of PA equipment could have come even CLOSE to making that huge of a sonic difference out front.

Note:  It isn't that I haven't heard bands using wedges that sound good, but generally their drums and guitars are under control (seems rare) and the stage noise is kept to a reasonable level.

Most of the bands that have really good out-front sound are using IEMs.  WAY bigger upgrade than mic pres, microphones or even speakers IME.

[Dave Pluke]

I've had similar conversations with guitar plays about about leaning their amp back on the amps built in kick back legs so they could actually hear their amp!

To that point, here's the best solution I've seen in awhile:

Dave

[Tim McCulloch]

I'm with JR.  Preamps - straight wire with gain - have been sussed out decades back.  What has been happening since then is selling "color" or any audible difference as being "better" when it's your product and "bad" when it's a competitor's.

When operated within their linear range most preamps sound far, far more alike than different.  It's what happens around the edges that set them apart.

If you want color, fine.  If you need 70dB of ultra-quiet gain, (like in video and film and some corporate stuff), fine.

If you want to make good live mixes almost anything and everything will have greater impact on the perceived sound quality.

Leave the preamp, take the cannoli.

[ProSoundWeb Community]