Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Scott Bolt]

Even lowly analog cheapies have better IC preamp implementations than we had on larger format desks back in the 80's.  Lower noise floor at high gain. 

Just having even very high quality PA mains in the same space as the microphones will affect the sound far more than any discernible preamp differences.  Adding wedges makes it even worse.  Throw headset wireless into that mix and I wish preamps were all there was to worry about!
In that environment I haven't even really been bothered to see if there's a noticeable difference between the X32 and supposedly "better" M32 preamps.

I tend to go even further in my belief that the difference between an X32 and an SQ or even DLIVE or DIGICO pales behind good FOH speakers, good microphones, and the use of an IEM system vs wedges in terms of quality of sound the audience hears.

As always, I agree that a very accomplished person behind the mixer (and setting up the system in the room) generally makes the most difference .... within reason.  I doubt even a very talented person could sound "good" with an old Behringer analog mixer, pg microphones and JRX speakers.... but then, that is a pretty extreme example.

With decent gear (X32 level mixer, SM58 level mics, JBL PRX level speakers, etc) the difference in sound quality due to the gear starts to reach diminishing returns.  Once you start getting one step up from the mics and speakers, it starts diminishing quite rapidly.  Not saying there is NO difference, just that it starts paling beside room acoustics, talent of the act, and talent of the person behind the board.

[Russell Ault]

{...}
With decent gear (X32 level mixer, SM58 level mics, JBL PRX level speakers, etc) the difference in sound quality due to the gear starts to reach diminishing returns.  Once you start getting one step up from the mics and speakers, it starts diminishing quite rapidly.  Not saying there is NO difference, just that it starts paling beside room acoustics, talent of the act, and talent of the person behind the board.

I mostly agree, except that when it comes to speakers (where >10% THD traditionally isn't uncommon) I think the differences between "good" and "great" can still be readily heard in a lot of situations and environments.

But preamps? Not so much. (And don't get me started on 96k...)

-Russ

[Brian Adams]

There's a noticeable difference in pres. Does it matter than much? Probably not, pretty much everything sounds good these days, just different. The X32 sounds good, the M32 sounds a bit better. Subjectively, of course. But both of them are very usable, and you can get great results on either.

I have an A&H Avantis, and among other things I use it to track orchestra recordings. I used to do that job with an M32. The preamps in the GX4816 sound arguably better than the M32. The M32 had a bit more flavor, but the GX pres are much cleaner. That's based on memory though, I never did a direct A-B comparison.

However, I picked up 32 channels of A&H Prime Input preamps recently, and I did a direct A-B comparison last month between them and the GX pres during a concert cycle. I used an analog split to get 32 channels into the GX4816 and another 32 into the Prime pres, set them identically, and tracked all 64 channels at 96k. There's a noticeable difference, and everyone here agrees the Prime pres are better. They sound warmer, cleaner, and more linear to me, although I'll admit I haven't spent a million hours comparing them. People who didn't know what I spent on them feel the same, so it's not just me.

My rock-n-roll type clients don't care about pres at all though. Not enough to pay more for them, anyway. And I don't really see anyone using external pres with a live rig these days.

If you're looking primarily for a live board that you can also track with, the M32 is a solid choice, since you can easily record 32 tracks over USB.

If you want something dedicated to a studio, that's when you should start looking at preamps. But even then, I have a UAD Apollo x8p and the pres in it are pretty great, but it does a whole lot more than that. There are a lot of options out there, that's for sure.

[Kelly Mcguire]

 Rendering an opinion regarding sound quality by attributing everything to preamps is an incomplete assessment. Higher end doesn’t only include better preamps. A/D is part of the equation. Even direct outs has to include at least one trip through conversion.

In live sound, there are way too many factors messing with sound quality. Bleed, phase, acoustics, proximate speakers to the mics capturing everything, power alleys, comb filtering, and little control of sound sources are but a few challenges. Studio is a closed loop environment. They’re over there, in a different space. You have time. The rooms are always better. No monitors or PA. Except for a drum kit or a band tracking live(does anyone do that anymore) a couple/few “color” channels are usually enough for dubs.

Bring a bunch of Neve preamps into your line ins with $20 A/D then D/A and I guarantee you’ll “hear” the price tag. 

Preamps in live sound to me are somewhere after FOH chair comfort 

[Helge A Bentsen]

RE M32 and preamps. There is an audible difference between M32 with DL32 and M32 with DL251.
Haven't tried a X32 with DL251, but I suspect you'll find the same thing there.

[John Roberts {JR}]

The biggest difference between preamps in premium consoles is the amount of money spent on advertising to convince customers that they are better.  One old rule about merchandising is that you need to sound different when claiming to sound "better".

 At least one digital console maker incorporated a soft clip limiter into their mic preamps. This allows operators to crank the preamps up to hotter gains (past overload) without sounding horrible. Louder is often perceived as sounding better, while the soft limiter is in fact distorting the waveform.

The general perception about this one actual sonic difference is subjective. I won't share my personal opinion.

JR

PS: As  a console designer (last century) it used to make me crazy the way customers have lower expectations about the sound quality of console mic preamps just because they exist in multiples inside a common chassis. 

 

[Scott Bolt]

I mostly agree, except that when it comes to speakers (where >10% THD traditionally isn't uncommon) I think the differences between "good" and "great" can still be readily heard in a lot of situations and environments.

But preamps? Not so much. (And don't get me started on 96k...)

-Russ

Oh I can hear it .... and I agree that 96K arguments are similar to preamp arguments in mixers today with respect to live sound.

I will say that the quality of processing in a digital mixer does make a difference (vs preamps).  A mixer with more DSP power will be able to provide better compression, higher quality reverb, more accurate and complete eq, etc.  I believe that these aspects of a board are now what actually makes one mixer sound "better" than another one ..... or that a soundman would say it is "easier to get a good mix" on.

I can hear the difference between a PRX 812 and a Yamaha DZR12 (but would argue many in the audience can't).  It is much harder to hear the difference between a DZR12 and an RCF932, but I believe it is still there, but if it is, it isn't that big.  RCF NX932 and Meyer UPA1P?  I can certainly feel the difference when you carry them .

The difference between a band in a medium size indoor venue with IEM's vs floor wedges?  I can hear that every time.

[Caleb Dueck]

The difference between a band in a medium size indoor venue with IEM's vs floor wedges?  I can hear that every time.

Agreed; this is an area where HoW systems pulled way ahead of live concert systems.  The places where wedges actually make sense now is nearly, but not quite, zero. 

[Mike Caldwell]

Agreed; this is an area where HoW systems pulled way ahead of live concert systems.  The places where wedges actually make sense now is nearly, but not quite, zero.

Oh how I wish every band would see it that way!!!

Although still many times advancing a show I still hear..."we're easy just put out wedges for all of us" or
I mention IEM's and the answer is something like "we're deaf old school musicians wedges will be fine" actually I heard that one!

[Mark Scrivener]

Agreed; this is an area where HoW systems pulled way ahead of live concert systems.  The places where wedges actually make sense now is nearly, but not quite, zero.

From a sonic standpoint, no question, IEM's are the way to go. But the majority of shows are small local bands, and very few of those have IEM's.

Another thing to consider - most of the gigs these smaller bands get don't have the budget for a sound man, so they "mix" from stage, hard enough with wedges, but nearly impossible with IEM's. So when these bands play a bigger gig with real sound, they are used to wedges and have zero experience with IEM's.

As both a musician and a sound guy, I'd love nothing better than to have  everyone on IEM's. But I realize it isn't gonna happen. I've even considered selling my IEM gear since it almost never gets used.

But back on topic.....band > arrangement > speakers/IEMs/sound guy > mics > console (effects quality) > etc > etc >preamps   or something like that.

[ProSoundWeb Community]