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Author Topic: Harmonics when ringing out  (Read 2842 times)

Steve-White

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Re: Harmonics when ringing out
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2024, 09:39:46 PM »

Not to steal Ivan's thunder, but I would suggest that the answer to this question is "It Depends™". I agree with everything Ivan said, but for any given application you have to ask yourself how important "the tonal character" of the sound actually is; for example, in speech-oriented applications the answer is often something along the lines of "do whatever you need to do to make the words intelligible and the system feedback-stable, and if after all that it still sounds even vaguely like a human voice then you can call that a win".

-Russ

For the OP.  You're seeking answers to questions akin to how to create an oil painting.  Every statement is right and every statement could be argued against.

Biggest thing if you want gain, have good mains/monitors that are tuned well.  Individual "correction" can be and is applied.....however....

Example, setting up a small PA for neighborhood associations in a church multi-purpose room.  I would tune the mains, no monitors used - just tune the system to the room (system is already dialed-in) near-field.  Tune system to the room, then do just a bit of tone shaping on the mics if needed.  I don't ever recall ever tweaking the podium condenser or hand-held SM58 wireless'.  Plenty of gain available and a nice natural sounding system. 

Whereas, doing a loud club rock band, that plays loud onstage, I always ring out the monitors....every time, typically pulling 3 frequencies out, but surgically.

Like Scott said, which is most important if you want louder, bring in a louder setup.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Harmonics when ringing out
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2024, 01:42:42 AM »

For the OP.  You're seeking answers to questions akin to how to create an oil painting.  Every statement is right and every statement could be argued against.

Biggest thing if you want gain, have good mains/monitors that are tuned well.  Individual "correction" can be and is applied.....however....

Example, setting up a small PA for neighborhood associations in a church multi-purpose room.  I would tune the mains, no monitors used - just tune the system to the room (system is already dialed-in) near-field.  Tune system to the room, then do just a bit of tone shaping on the mics if needed.  I don't ever recall ever tweaking the podium condenser or hand-held SM58 wireless'.  Plenty of gain available and a nice natural sounding system. 

Whereas, doing a loud club rock band, that plays loud onstage, I always ring out the monitors....every time, typically pulling 3 frequencies out, but surgically.

Like Scott said, which is most important if you want louder, bring in a louder setup.


I would like to add that the most important item on a monitor checklist is a properly set high pass filter.  Nothing is worse than low frequency feedback on the stage as typically you won't hear it from FOH until the stage is ready to explode.  Meanwhile the musicians can't hear the bass player, and they look like they want to kill you.  Now if you are mixing monitors from monitor world it's an entirely different story you can hear the stage and put more LF energy.  It makes the stage sound richer and fuller.  It is OK to rely on hearing the FOH on stage especially the main subs.  It's much better to have sidefills with subs and a properly EQ's mix.  You don't get that on a bar budget!


 
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Steve-White

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Re: Harmonics when ringing out
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2024, 04:19:29 AM »


I would like to add that the most important item on a monitor checklist is a properly set high pass filter.  Nothing is worse than low frequency feedback on the stage as typically you won't hear it from FOH until the stage is ready to explode.  Meanwhile the musicians can't hear the bass player, and they look like they want to kill you.  Now if you are mixing monitors from monitor world it's an entirely different story you can hear the stage and put more LF energy.  It makes the stage sound richer and fuller.  It is OK to rely on hearing the FOH on stage especially the main subs.  It's much better to have sidefills with subs and a properly EQ's mix.  You don't get that on a bar budget!

LF can also wrap from the mains as well.

Reminds me of the club days with the rock bands.  For a year or so I was partnered up with a guy that owned a studio.  We'd trade off nights in the clubs.  He could do a great FOH mix but really struggled with monitors and would dork up the mix.  Probably playing with the input pads on the analog consoles, which affected the monitor sends.  Jack the mix up until mics started ringing then he was lost.  I got a couple of phone calls to come in and bail him out when things started ringing.

IMO monitors are a bit more of a challenge to setup and mix than FOH.
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Darren Brister

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Re: Harmonics when ringing out
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2024, 03:06:57 AM »

Everything starts with good quality at the source. Good quality mics. Secondary would be good quality mons. Tertiary would be good quality mains. A clean stage will give you clean mains. Tune the mons first and you will have an easier time with the mains. 17db over unity is a good starting point for most dynamic mics. There are ways to use your compressors like EQ (A). Remember, EQ is not used for making things sound better, but rather to time align frequencies (B). This is why notch filters are stupid. They screw up your phase-time. Use a wide Q. On an M32 this would be about 1.0 to 1.1 (and the reason Midas made the VEQ). The old guys had it right. The best thing about the Midas consoles is the spectrogram overlaid on top of the PEQ. Match your cuts to the displayed red/orange portions of the spectrogram.

(A) There are ways to use a compressor so that no one can hear it. If you've ever heard someone complain about not wanting their mix compressed, it wasn't done right. With 17db over unity for dynamic mics, I start with this saved compressor: -28 to -34db Threshold, 17-18ms Attack (just enough to grab the transient), 2:1 Ratio (with a max of 2.4:1), less than 6ms Hold time, and get this - Release time is whatever frequency you want to hear. I am still working out this concept, but for example, if I want more 250hz in the mix, with these settings I would set the Release time to 250ms. Never more than 3db total compression. If you do it exactly this way, your problems will disappear. Additionally, an Attack time of less than 17ms will yield a "thinner" sound out of the compressor. A Hold time of less than 4ms will yield a "thinner" sound out of the compressor, and vice versa.
(B) Louder frequencies travel faster. Whichever frequency(s) reach the mic first will feed back. If all the frequencies hit the mic at the same time, none will feed back.

High-Pass accordingly on the channel strip with the monitors POST EQ (if in monitor world). I use a 3-6-9 relationship to start. Ex. If hi-passing at 63hz yields too much low end on stage, and 93hz hi-pass doesn't yield enough to make it sound natural, I settle for something in-between such as 72hz (adds up to 9) or 81hz (adds up to 9). There is a relationship there I can't explain, but for lack of knowledge on reading music. If you do this, you can anchor your mix so you can move on to something else - like Compression and EQ. It takes the guesswork out.

Start with the PEQ and if a frequency lands squarely on a frequency listed on the Graphic EQ, then you can go to your Graphic EQ and cut gently (3db), saving EQ points on your PEQ. Then, continue working on your PEQ while bringing the volume up.

**The most important thing here is to know what you're going to do before you do it - hence the anchor points. What I've just given you is a manual for controlling sound in general. Do it like this and you can walk into any situation WITHOUT FEAR and your cup shall runneth over :)

I cannot explain to you the ease with which I approach things. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. You're the best.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 03:18:46 AM by Darren Brister »
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Harmonics when ringing out
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2024, 03:27:19 AM »

Everything starts with good quality at the source. Good quality mics. Secondary would be good quality mons. Tertiary would be good quality mains. A clean stage will give you clean mains. Tune the mons first and you will have an easier time with the mains. 17db over unity is a good starting point for most dynamic mics. There are ways to use your compressors like EQ (A). Remember, EQ is not used for making things sound better, but rather to time align frequencies (B). This is why notch filters are stupid. They screw up your phase-time. Use a wide Q. On an M32 this would be about 1.0 to 1.1 (and the reason Midas made the VEQ). The old guys had it right. The best thing about the Midas consoles is the spectrogram overlaid on top of the PEQ. Match your cuts to the displayed red/orange portions of the spectrogram.

(A) There are ways to use a compressor so that no one can hear it. If you've ever heard someone complain about not wanting their mix compressed, it wasn't done right. With 17db over unity for dynamic mics, I start with this saved compressor: -28 to -34db Threshold, 17-18ms Attack (just enough to grab the transient), 2:1 Ratio (with a max of 2.4:1), less than 6ms Hold time, and get this - Release time is whatever frequency you want to hear. I am still working out this concept, but for example, if I want more 250hz in the mix, with these settings I would set the Release time to 250ms. Never more than 3db total compression. If you do it exactly this way, your problems will disappear. Additionally, an Attack time of less than 17ms will yield a "thinner" sound out of the compressor. A Hold time of less than 4ms will yield a "thinner" sound out of the compressor, and vice versa.
(B) Louder frequencies travel faster. Whichever frequency(s) reach the mic first will feed back. If all the frequencies hit the mic at the same time, none will feed back.

High-Pass accordingly on the channel strip with the monitors POST EQ (if in monitor world). I use a 3-6-9 relationship to start. Ex. If hi-passing at 63hz yields too much low end on stage, and 93hz hi-pass doesn't yield enough to make it sound natural, I settle for something in-between such as 72hz (adds up to 9) or 81hz (adds up to 9). There is a relationship there I can't explain, but for lack of knowledge on reading music. If you do this, you can anchor your mix so you can move on to something else - like Compression and EQ. It takes the guesswork out.

Start with the PEQ and if a frequency lands squarely on a frequency listed on the Graphic EQ, then you can go to your Graphic EQ and cut gently (3db), saving EQ points on your PEQ. Then, continue working on your PEQ while bringing the volume up.

**The most important thing here is to know what you're going to do before you do it - hence the anchor points. What I've just given you is a manual for controlling sound in general. Do it like this and you can walk into any situation WITHOUT FEAR and your cup shall runneth over :)

I cannot explain to you the ease with which I approach things. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. You're the best.


pfffft, sorry for my poor Bill the Cat imitation.  I was just overwhelmed with the self indulgent diatribe.  I remember when I did this too, and I am sure it was met with similar fanfare. 



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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Harmonics when ringing out
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2024, 08:23:56 AM »

(A). Remember, EQ is not used for making things sound better, but rather to time align frequencies (B). This is why notch filters are stupid. They screw up your phase-time. U

(A) There are ways to use a compressor so that no one can hear it. If you've ever heard someone complain about not wanting their mix compressed, it wasn't done right. With 17db over unity for dynamic mics, I start with this saved compressor: -28 to -34db Threshold, 17-18ms Attack (just enough to grab the transient), 2:1 Ratio (with a max of 2.4:1), less than 6ms Hold time, and get this - Release time is whatever frequency you want to hear. I am still working out this concept, but for example, if I want more 250hz in the mix, with these settings I would set the Release time to 250ms. Never more than 3db total compression. If you do it exactly this way, your problems will disappear. Additionally, an Attack time of less than 17ms will yield a "thinner" sound out of the compressor. A Hold time of less than 4ms will yield a "thinner" sound out of the compressor, and vice versa.
(B) Louder frequencies travel faster. Whichever frequency(s) reach the mic first will feed back. If all the frequencies hit the mic at the same time, none will feed back.

High-Pass accordingly on the channel strip with the monitors POST EQ (if in monitor world). I use a 3-6-9 relationship to start. Ex. If hi-passing at 63hz yields too much low end on stage, and 93hz hi-pass doesn't yield enough to make it sound natural, I settle for something in-between such as 72hz (adds up to 9) or 81hz (adds up to 9). There is a relationship there I can't explain, but for lack of knowledge on reading music. If you do this, you can anchor your mix so you can move on to something else - like Compression and EQ. It takes the guesswork out.


Sorry, but there are a number of misconceptions/wrong ideas etc in your post

The idea of EQ is used to "time align freq" is just plain wrong.  Yes there will be some phase shift when using eq (non FIR), HOWEVER the phase shift may be a good thing or a bad thing-depending on the phase response of the loudspeaker.  Sometimes eq will correct the phase response, other times it will make it worse.

But it will affect the overall freq response, which is most often used to make it sound better-or to reduce the "hot spots" in the response to even it out.

Where does the idea of 250Hz = 250ms come in?  I have never heard this in all of my years in this crazy business.  So does that mean that 1,000 hz would equal a 1,000ms release?  and 100Hz=100ms. If so, that is completely backwards of "normal operation".  In the normal world, attack release times are tied to the wavelengths, which are inversely proportional to the freq. 

Can you PLEASE point us to any legitimate article etc about "loud sounds traveling faster".  I have never heard anyone say or read any article that suggest that.

There is a certain amount of possible gain before feedback, and the loudest sound at the mic (this is taking into account the mics freq response, the response of the loudspeaker, the size and type of reflections etc, is going to start to feedback. 

The idea of "adding up to 9" is just silly if you ask me.  So you are saying that setting the HP to 72 (adding up to 9) is "perfect", but if you set it to 71 or 73Hz it will make enough of a difference that you would notice?  Again, can you please point us to anything that can explain that?

IF I am wrong on any of this, please feel free to correct me with any sort of evidence.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Harmonics when ringing out
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2024, 10:51:14 AM »


**The most important thing here is to know what you're going to do before you do it - hence the anchor points. What I've just given you is a manual for controlling sound in general. Do it like this and you can walk into any situation WITHOUT FEAR and your cup shall runneth over :)

I cannot explain to you the ease with which I approach things. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. You're the best.

Just a little scary...  ???

JR
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John Sulek

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Re: Harmonics when ringing out
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2024, 12:18:12 PM »


(A) There are ways to use a compressor so that no one can hear it. If you've ever heard someone complain about not wanting their mix compressed, it wasn't done right. With 17db over unity for dynamic mics, I start with this saved compressor: -28 to -34db Threshold, 17-18ms Attack (just enough to grab the transient), 2:1 Ratio (with a max of 2.4:1), less than 6ms Hold time, and get this - Release time is whatever frequency you want to hear. I am still working out this concept, but for example, if I want more 250hz in the mix, with these settings I would set the Release time to 250ms. Never more than 3db total compression. If you do it exactly this way, your problems will disappear. Additionally, an Attack time of less than 17ms will yield a "thinner" sound out of the compressor. A Hold time of less than 4ms will yield a "thinner" sound out of the compressor, and vice versa.
(B) Louder frequencies travel faster. Whichever frequency(s) reach the mic first will feed back. If all the frequencies hit the mic at the same time, none will feed back.

High-Pass accordingly on the channel strip with the monitors POST EQ (if in monitor world). I use a 3-6-9 relationship to start. Ex. If hi-passing at 63hz yields too much low end on stage, and 93hz hi-pass doesn't yield enough to make it sound natural, I settle for something in-between such as 72hz (adds up to 9) or 81hz (adds up to 9). There is a relationship there I can't explain, but for lack of knowledge on reading music. If you do this, you can anchor your mix so you can move on to something else - like Compression and EQ. It takes the guesswork out.


As someone who gets paid to mix monitors...WTAF??
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Dave Garoutte

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Re: Harmonics when ringing out
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2024, 01:01:52 PM »

Hmm,  I never knew the speed of sound was related to the volume.  That explains everything! ::)
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Jeremy Young

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Re: Harmonics when ringing out
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2024, 01:57:54 PM »

Harmonics as described could be related to room modes, as in, the dimensions of space and wavelength size line up at octaves (two complete sine cycles of 500hz at 1k, strong reflection summing waves at 1k is also summing at 500) but the mic and speaker response have a much bigger impact on feedback in my experience.  Maybe that's where this is coming from?  I'm not an expert on acoustics, so if I haven't used the correct terms please feel free to correct me.

On the topic of compression in monitors, I was always taught that it can lead to vocal strain for singers (pushing their voice harder but not getting a linear increase in volume in their wedge).    When running monitors from FOH without mics split to separate processing channels, I'll do any vocal compression I need for FOH with subgroups so it doesn't end up in the monitors.
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Re: Harmonics when ringing out
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2024, 01:57:54 PM »


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