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Crowd Mics For Use With IEM's
Burt Blanker:
Okay, so I tried this on Reddit and ended up getting a ton of trolling responses looking to argue with me about this, so I decided to try my luck here.I essentially need recommendations for crowd mics, on the cheap. Which makes sense, since I am not using these for singing or mic'ing instruments. My aural understanding is that if all is want is "crowd noise" then even budget mics will do the job just fine.
I have been looking at the Behringer C2. Amazon sells a pair of them for $59.00, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CZ0RLU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1 which comes with a bunch of cool stuff bundled in, like a padded case containing the two mics, foam windscreens, clips for use on mics stands, an adapter for mounting the two mics together in a Blumlein configuration, and two screw adapters for different stand connectors.
I love the sound of IEM's, and just recently unboxed a brand new pair of Aful P5's I'm dying to try, but the isolation from the crowd is a real deal-breaker for me. I used to use a pair of Shure e4c's about a decade back, but bailed on them, even though they sound better than wedges, and are much more customizable, not to mention I prefer not dealing with an out of control stage volume.
The deal-breaker for me is NOT hearing the crowd. I would greatly appreciate if people wouldn't try to convince me to "just get used to the isolation, or just use wedges!" as if there were only two choices here. I would like the best of both worlds, if I can: which is IEM's, and a few crowd mics sending crowd noises (applause, cheering, yelling from the audience, etc.) into 2-3 channels on my mixer, then sending that to the IEM's for anyone that wants it.
For me, there really are only TWO choices:
-IEM's plus crowd mics
-Stick with wedges.
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51MQae68nAL._AC_SL1000_.jpg
Dave Garoutte:
Audience mics are pretty SOP for in ears, as well as recordings.
I usually see small condensers.
I suggest you get something that you might be able to use for something else when not needed for audience coverage.
Cheaping out on equipment is never a good idea IMO.
brian maddox:
--- Quote from: Burt Blanker on November 04, 2023, 01:51:08 PM ---Okay, so I tried this on Reddit and ended up getting a ton of trolling responses looking to argue with me about this, so I decided to try my luck here.I essentially need recommendations for crowd mics, on the cheap. Which makes sense, since I am not using these for singing or mic'ing instruments. My aural understanding is that if all is want is "crowd noise" then even budget mics will do the job just fine.
I have been looking at the Behringer C2. Amazon sells a pair of them for $59.00, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CZ0RLU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1 which comes with a bunch of cool stuff bundled in, like a padded case containing the two mics, foam windscreens, clips for use on mics stands, an adapter for mounting the two mics together in a Blumlein configuration, and two screw adapters for different stand connectors.
I love the sound of IEM's, and just recently unboxed a brand new pair of Aful P5's I'm dying to try, but the isolation from the crowd is a real deal-breaker for me. I used to use a pair of Shure e4c's about a decade back, but bailed on them, even though they sound better than wedges, and are much more customizable, not to mention I prefer not dealing with an out of control stage volume.
The deal-breaker for me is NOT hearing the crowd. I would greatly appreciate if people wouldn't try to convince me to "just get used to the isolation, or just use wedges!" as if there were only two choices here. I would like the best of both worlds, if I can: which is IEM's, and a few crowd mics sending crowd noises (applause, cheering, yelling from the audience, etc.) into 2-3 channels on my mixer, then sending that to the IEM's for anyone that wants it.
For me, there really are only TWO choices:
-IEM's plus crowd mics
-Stick with wedges.
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51MQae68nAL._AC_SL1000_.jpg
--- End quote ---
I also responded on the reddit thread but....
I've used the C2s for ambient mics. They're fine. They'll allow you to hear the crowd although they will also muddy up your mix so having them duck during songs is a good idea.
What no ambient mic will do is completely solve the feeling of isolation you have with IEMs because it's not really caused by not being able to hear the outside world. It's caused by the fact that your audio image ends up being a static fixed stereo mix but your eyes are telling you that your head is NOT in a static fixed position. The resultant cognitive dissonance causes your brain to reject what you're hearing as being connected to what you're seeing and so you feel "isolated" as if you aren't a "Part" of your surroundings.
You can become accustomed to this. Most performers who use IEMs do just that. Because solving this riddle ends up being very complicated/expensive.
I currently know of 3 "solves" for this issue.
1 - Klang immersive audio systems. These recreate a 360 degree audio field and can even be used with head tracking to "move" that image in response to your head movements. It works. It's VERY VERY expensive.
2 - JH Audio has introduced a system that adds DPA microphone on the outside of their IEMs. These REQUIRE a Lectrosonics RF rig and mist still be added to your ear mix by a mixer. These are also Very Expensive. About 8 grand just for the IEMs and RF.
3 - Sensaphonics/ASI audio 3DME - These are universal IEMs with built in microphones. They come with a belt pack that allows you to mix as much or as little of those mics into your mix as you'd like as well as an easily accessible toggle so you can have a "very ambient" and a "not so ambient" preset to switch between. The Universal kit is 800 bucks all in. Still not cheap, but not insane. if you want Custom IEMs the price goes up substantially. I've got the custom Quads and they are amazing and the spatial imaging works really well. But it's pushing 3K once it's all said and done.
I left off a 4th option because it's not really a solve. You can get "ported" IEMs that let outside sound in. But you lose a ton of low end response and letting in the stage volume kinda defeats the point of IEMs in the first place.
So there ya have it. And yes, you can just stick with wedges and their inherent tradeoffs of muddying up the FOH mix and causing on stage "volume wars" that always end up in feedback and long term hearing loss. If your band can somehow avoid those tradeoffs, then that's your simplest cheapest option.
Burt Blanker:
--- Quote from: Dave Garoutte on November 04, 2023, 02:05:16 PM ---Audience mics are pretty SOP for in ears, as well as recordings.
I usually see small condensers.
I suggest you get something that you might be able to use for something else when not needed for audience coverage.
Cheaping out on equipment is never a good idea IMO.
--- End quote ---
999 times out of 1,000, I would agree with this. Which is why all my mics, to date are industry standard ones. My SM58 and EV 767ND for vocals, and my SM57 and e609 for amp mic'ing. I recently purchased a Fractal FM9, so if that works out the way I hope, I won't need the SM57 since I won't be using an amp on stage. (fingers crossed) and one guitarist I work with sometimes uses my e609. So I could use my SM57 as one of my crowd mics, which is not cheaping out. But seriously, I don't think that buying a pair of C2s, even though they are dirt cheap, is actually a bad idea. As long as they will work, I can literally use them only for this purpose, rather than spending a lot of money on mics I have no other use for at all.
--- Quote from: brian maddox on November 04, 2023, 02:23:11 PM ---I also responded on the reddit thread but....
I've used the C2s for ambient mics. They're fine. They'll allow you to hear the crowd although they will also muddy up your mix so having them duck during songs is a good idea.
--- End quote ---
I do remember your response on Reddit. The mods deleted the thread for some reason, even though a lot of the discussion, at least what I saw, was all right. Maybe a few trolls trying to derail it.
Not sure what you mean by "ducking", though. Is this an automated function of some sort?
--- Quote from: brian maddox on November 04, 2023, 02:23:11 PM ---What no ambient mic will do is completely solve the feeling of isolation you have with IEMs because it's not really caused by not being able to hear the outside world. It's caused by the fact that your audio image ends up being a static fixed stereo mix but your eyes are telling you that your head is NOT in a static fixed position. The resultant cognitive dissonance causes your brain to reject what you're hearing as being connected to what you're seeing and so you feel "isolated" as if you aren't a "Part" of your surroundings.
--- End quote ---
This part of it doesn't really bother me, because I have been playing live a lot with backing tracks. Since it isn't like a real stage, where you can sort of key in on instruments, singers, and other stage sounds by turning your head, this won't be a big issue. I can get used to this, but I see what you mean. It still isn't ideal.
I see this as a trade-off, and only sort of mitigating the isolation, not eliminating it. Obviously, there is no perfect solution, as any way you slice it, both wedges and IEM's have their pros and cons.
--- Quote from: brian maddox on November 04, 2023, 02:23:11 PM ---You can become accustomed to this. Most performers who use IEMs do just that. Because solving this riddle ends up being very complicated/expensive.
I currently know of 3 "solves" for this issue.
1 - Klang immersive audio systems. These recreate a 360 degree audio field and can even be used with head tracking to "move" that image in response to your head movements. It works. It's VERY VERY expensive.
2 - JH Audio has introduced a system that adds DPA microphone on the outside of their IEMs. These REQUIRE a Lectrosonics RF rig and mist still be added to your ear mix by a mixer. These are also Very Expensive. About 8 grand just for the IEMs and RF.
3 - Sensaphonics/ASI audio 3DME - These are universal IEMs with built in microphones. They come with a belt pack that allows you to mix as much or as little of those mics into your mix as you'd like as well as an easily accessible toggle so you can have a "very ambient" and a "not so ambient" preset to switch between. The Universal kit is 800 bucks all in. Still not cheap, but not insane. if you want Custom IEMs the price goes up substantially. I've got the custom Quads and they are amazing and the spatial imaging works really well. But it's pushing 3K once it's all said and done.
I left off a 4th option because it's not really a solve. You can get "ported" IEMs that let outside sound in. But you lose a ton of low end response and letting in the stage volume kinda defeats the point of IEMs in the first place.
--- End quote ---
All of this is waaaaaaaay too high tech and nuanced than I want to get! But yeah, great suggestions. If I ever find myself playing huge crowds, and making tons of money, then, sure, whatever it costs, whatever work has to be done is worth it, right? I think my needs are actually quite simple: Get IEM sounds with some crowd noises to mitigate, but not eliminate, the feeling of isolation, or, like you said, just stick with wedges. I want to try the crowd mics, as a possible fix before making the decision. That's why I don't mind investing a whopping $59.00 on the pair of C2's. If they work the way I imagine them working, I think that's the fix right there. I have the open channels on my mixer, and can even toss in my SM57 as a crowd mic, as I said, so I have three channels of crowd noise to send to my IEMs and can mix them in/out like any other channel in the mix.
--- Quote from: brian maddox on November 04, 2023, 02:23:11 PM ---So there ya have it. And yes, you can just stick with wedges and their inherent tradeoffs of muddying up the FOH mix and causing on stage "volume wars" that always end up in feedback and long term hearing loss. If your band can somehow avoid those tradeoffs, then that's your simplest cheapest option.
--- End quote ---
I hear you. The beauty of Amazon, is I can try the pair of C2's and if I don't like them, or they don't work the way I want them to, I can always return them.
brian maddox:
--- Quote from: Burt Blanker on November 04, 2023, 03:29:12 PM ---999 times out of 1,000, I would agree with this. Which is why all my mics, to date are industry standard ones. My SM58 and EV 767ND for vocals, and my SM57 and e609 for amp mic'ing. I recently purchased a Fractal FM9, so if that works out the way I hope, I won't need the SM57 since I won't be using an amp on stage. (fingers crossed) and one guitarist I work with sometimes uses my e609. So I could use my SM57 as one of my crowd mics, which is not cheaping out. But seriously, I don't think that buying a pair of C2s, even though they are dirt cheap, is actually a bad idea. As long as they will work, I can literally use them only for this purpose, rather than spending a lot of money on mics I have no other use for at all.
I do remember your response on Reddit. The mods deleted the thread for some reason, even though a lot of the discussion, at least what I saw, was all right. Maybe a few trolls trying to derail it.
Not sure what you mean by "ducking", though. Is this an automated function of some sort?
This part of it doesn't really bother me, because I have been playing live a lot with backing tracks. Since it isn't like a real stage, where you can sort of key in on instruments, singers, and other stage sounds by turning your head, this won't be a big issue. I can get used to this, but I see what you mean. It still isn't ideal.
I see this as a trade-off, and only sort of mitigating the isolation, not eliminating it. Obviously, there is no perfect solution, as any way you slice it, both wedges and IEM's have their pros and cons.
All of this is waaaaaaaay too high tech and nuanced than I want to get! But yeah, great suggestions. If I ever find myself playing huge crowds, and making tons of money, then, sure, whatever it costs, whatever work has to be done is worth it, right? I think my needs are actually quite simple: Get IEM sounds with some crowd noises to mitigate, but not eliminate, the feeling of isolation, or, like you said, just stick with wedges. I want to try the crowd mics, as a possible fix before making the decision. That's why I don't mind investing a whopping $59.00 on the pair of C2's. If they work the way I imagine them working, I think that's the fix right there. I have the open channels on my mixer, and can even toss in my SM57 as a crowd mic, as I said, so I have three channels of crowd noise to send to my IEMs and can mix them in/out like any other channel in the mix.
I hear you. The beauty of Amazon, is I can try the pair of C2's and if I don't like them, or they don't work the way I want them to, I can always return them.
--- End quote ---
A lot of my response wasn't just for you, but also for anyone else that might stumble upon this thread in the future. So take what applies and leave the rest. :)
"ducking" is a type of compression/gating whereby a signal is attenuated when another signal is present. So in the case of IEMs it would be set to turn your ambients mics down some when you're playing a song and turn them back up when you end the song so you can once again hear your surroundings.
Some mixers will have a compressor or gate preset that is already setup to do this. If not you can "roll you own" so long as the mixer you're using allows a "side chain" input to trigger a compressor which most will do now. I suspect if you google your mixer and "ducking" there will be a tutorial somewhere to show you how to set yours up.
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