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Cardioid pattern.

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Tim McCulloch:

--- Quote from: Al Rettich on August 30, 2023, 04:44:49 PM ---Ivan,
This venue the promoter doesn't like giving up space for subs. When I tried to get him to pay for flying them, he didn't want to pay, and told me to stack them as far away from center as possible. However, all the acts have complained of all the low end on stage. We have twelve subs, in carts stacked two hight. Everything I've been taught has that two facing forward, and one flipped. I was always able to "play" and get a bit more rejection by moving the delay time around. (and flipping out of phase) I keep wanting to learn about end fire, but if you search youtube there are quite a few folks who go against each other. My goal has been to get even coverage, and try to have a bit less low end onstage.

--- End quote ---

The quarter-wave spaced array (with or without delay arc) across the front of the stage can even out coverage left to right, but puts a whole lot of energy back on the stage.  It also eats 6 feet or more of downstage space, which is what your promoter doesn't want to do.  Taking out space:  smaller capacity; flying:  more expense (riggers) for the in and out.  And the promoter doesn't give a shit about what the bands might like or prefer unless it's a show-stopping issue with the act.  Trust me, sub placement won't be THAT issue for any gig most of us will be doing.  Promoter: "fine, don't play, pack up your merch and get the hell out, and no, I'm not paying the balance, sue me."  When artist management hears about it, they'll be screaming at the band and the PM/TM "what the fuck did you just do? It's gonna take years to repair the relationship with that promoter."

When the BE comes to me with this kind of stuff, especially if it wasn't advanced, I usually suggest that they immediatley involve management and the promoter rep - because I know what will happen.  My alternate is "well, what you want will reduce the ticket inventory by 10% and show is sold out, so we need the promoter to decide who gets refunds..."  Guess what ain't happening?  Now if everyone (promoter, venue, house manager, security, etc) is on the same page - in advance - about sub deployment, it will be done and ready when the BE arrives.

That all said, I'm not talking about U2 or Adele or other international or national level performers, as this was all worked out months prior when the show was designed.

The tl;dr
If you're still with me, Al - thanks for caring, really.  The things that will make the most difference either reduce revenue or increase costs, or possibly become security or safety concerns.  Usually those decisions are above our pay grade.

Helge A Bentsen:
What you can do if time and space permits it, is to do a cardioid stack or end fire solution L/R and angle them outwards.
That way the rear cancellation lobe points toward the stage. This might help, how much is dependent on the venue acoustic and physical placement.
Done it a couple of times with good results and a few times with little or no effect due to placement issues and venue acoustics.

John Schalk:

--- Quote from: Al Rettich on August 30, 2023, 04:44:49 PM ---This venue the promoter doesn't like giving up space for subs. When I tried to get him to pay for flying them, he didn't want to pay, and told me to stack them as far away from center as possible. However, all the acts have complained of all the low end on stage. We have twelve subs, in carts stacked two hight.

I keep wanting to learn about end fire, but if you search youtube there are quite a few folks who go against each other. My goal has been to get even coverage, and try to have a bit less low end onstage.

--- End quote ---
Al,
You may want to install Meyer's MAPP 3D software (it's free) and use it to model different subwoofer configurations in this venue.  MAPP 3D only has speaker files for Meyer's powered products, but if you own front loaded double 18" bass reflex subs then you can use Meyer's 1100 LFC for you models.  Heck, if you post the venue's dimensions including the stage size, I might have time to play around with some options.  Another source for real world experience with different subwoofer configuration options is Dave Rat's YouTube channel.  He has I think three videos in a subwoofer series where he goes through a bunch of different subwoofer setups that he's tried over the years.  He uses L-acoustics SoundVision software to show the results for the various configurations.

By the way, I'm a very small operator so I have no practical experience with any kind of subwoofer deployment beyond one on either side of the stage or two in the middle.  Maybe one of these days I can get a third sub matching subwoofer to play with!

Al Rettich:
I've done this with both SoundVision, and ArrayCalc. Thursday we had a show there, I had some time to play a bit with subs. I tried both a sub arc, then a sub arc with stacks of two subs. Bottom sub turned around, flipped out of phase. 4.1ms I found that dead center onstage was the quietest. But not as much as I've had with stacks of three.


--- Quote from: John Schalk on August 31, 2023, 10:34:48 AM ---Al,
You may want to install Meyer's MAPP 3D software (it's free) and use it to model different subwoofer configurations in this venue.  MAPP 3D only has speaker files for Meyer's powered products, but if you own front loaded double 18" bass reflex subs then you can use Meyer's 1100 LFC for you models.  Heck, if you post the venue's dimensions including the stage size, I might have time to play around with some options.  Another source for real world experience with different subwoofer configuration options is Dave Rat's YouTube channel.  He has I think three videos in a subwoofer series where he goes through a bunch of different subwoofer setups that he's tried over the years.  He uses L-acoustics SoundVision software to show the results for the various configurations.

By the way, I'm a very small operator so I have no practical experience with any kind of subwoofer deployment beyond one on either side of the stage or two in the middle.  Maybe one of these days I can get a third sub matching subwoofer to play with!

--- End quote ---

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