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Author Topic: center-clustered subs in cardioid mode or not for live bands?  (Read 988 times)

Jeff M Hague

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Re: center-clustered subs in cardioid mode or not for live bands?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2023, 12:04:58 PM »

I was wondering if most bands prefer center-clustered subs to run in cardioid mode or regular mode?  I now have two subs and am going to be doing sound for a festival in a few weeks.  I was deciding between running my two subs in cardioid or regular mode.

I'd be cautious using a cardioid configuration with only 2 subs. Cardioid works by cancelling output so you may not have enough oooomph with just 2.
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: center-clustered subs in cardioid mode or not for live bands?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2023, 02:38:18 PM »

At the risk of triggering the cardioid vs. non-cardioid power-output debate again: IMO and experience a center-cluster end-fire array, with boxes in-line both facing forward and away from the stage with the one closest to the stage un-delayed and the one farther from the stage delayed by the distance between it and the one behind it results in more power facing forward than any sort of omni array and less backwash to the stage. I don't think it relies on space behind the rear one for the effect, although I pretty much only use it with trailer stages that are open underneath.

I also use it doubled but placed on the sides of the stage and have good success.

The center version does result in less output directly to the sides of the stage, but usually IMO the benefits outweigh that negative.

YMMV.
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Russell Ault

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Re: center-clustered subs in cardioid mode or not for live bands?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2023, 03:36:41 PM »

{...} a center-cluster end-fire array, {...}

Just to be clear: end-fire arrays aim to achieve perfect summation in the front, so there should be no on-axis loss of overall level vs. a simple clump, while gradient arrays aim for perfect cancellation in the back and thus will have a reduced level vs. a simple clump.

Two subs in cardioid is/was known as the "Ramirez array" - the second sub is basically used only for cancellation to the rear, so you end up with effectively one sub but directional.

IIRC the overall level drop of a two-box gradient array vs. a two-box clump should only be ~3 dB within the array's pass-band. The rear sub is typically attenuated by 3 dB (which results in a ~1.5 dB drop of total output on its own), plus the forward summation is imperfect (although within the pass-band it should still be pretty good, at least for sustained tones), but even a two-box gradient array should result in more output than using a single box on its own (just not as much as if those two boxes were used in some kind of perfect-summation array).

-Russ
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Tom Shannon

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Re: center-clustered subs in cardioid mode or not for live bands?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2023, 09:05:20 AM »

I know it's a bit more complicated to setup, but if there's sufficient clearance from the front of stage to the audience, perhaps a center end fire array?
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Scott Bolt

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Re: center-clustered subs in cardioid mode or not for live bands?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2023, 04:20:30 PM »

A basic premise of engineering is that "you don't get something for nothing".  Most advanced engineering involves picking what you will give up that is less important than the thing you get in return.

As pointed out with cardioid subs the something you "get" is that the sound is directional and it stays off the stage better.  The thing you "give up" is volume out front.

FWIW, I have never had sufficient sub power that I was ever willing to give up volume out front, and I found ways to minimize the LF stage volume from being an issue (mic placement, LPF's, etc).

Just my 2 cents.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: center-clustered subs in cardioid mode or not for live bands?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2023, 04:20:30 PM »


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