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[David Morison]

but is that +20.5dBu max with the master outputs at max?

It will be +20.5dBu when the actual circuitry starts clipping, regardless of fader position.
For example, you could run a mix of several really hot inputs and get the output to max with the main fader some way below its limit, or you could run cooler inputs and get to max by having the main fader all the way up.

Or, to put it another way, it's +20.5dBu when the main meter is at 0dBFS, again, regardless of where the main fader is at.

[Travis Retrum]

It will be +20.5dBu when the actual circuitry starts clipping, regardless of fader position.
For example, you could run a mix of several really hot inputs and get the output to max with the main fader some way below its limit, or you could run cooler inputs and get to max by having the main fader all the way up.

Or, to put it another way, it's +20.5dBu when the main meter is at 0dBFS, again, regardless of where the main fader is at.

I’m not talking about the main fader tho. On the unit itself there are 2 knobs for master output level, one for left and one for right, they have a mark at the 2:00 position. That’s what I’m curious about, can these be turned up too high to cause a clipped output signal even tho the main fader isn’t clipping?

[David Morison]

I’m not talking about the main fader tho. On the unit itself there are 2 knobs for master output level, one for left and one for right, they have a mark at the 2:00 position. That’s what I’m curious about, can these be turned up too high to cause a clipped output signal even tho the main fader isn’t clipping?

Apologies, I was confusing this with your other thread where you included a pic of the software fader & meter.
Appendix 01 (page 114 of the PDF) states the output meters are "tapped just before the physical output" so I'd assume that is after the hardware control. Frankly, that is the only logical way for it to be configured IMO.
It's super easy to check though - with signal passing through the mixer, adjust the hardware knobs and see if the on screen meters follow.
Assuming the meters do track changes in the physical knob position, then you can fully rely on the software meters to tell you when you're near the limit.
HTH,
David.

[Patrick Tracy]

Apologies, I was confusing this with your other thread where you included a pic of the software fader & meter.
Appendix 01 (page 114 of the PDF) states the output meters are "tapped just before the physical output" so I'd assume that is after the hardware control. Frankly, that is the only logical way for it to be configured IMO.
It's super easy to check though - with signal passing through the mixer, adjust the hardware knobs and see if the on screen meters follow.
Assuming the meters do track changes in the physical knob position, then you can fully rely on the software meters to tell you when you're near the limit.
HTH,
David.

I suspect the meters and the 2-track record feed are tapped at the same point, and that it's before the trim knobs. If they weren't, using the knobs to adjust the volume in the room might affect the 2-track record level, which seems less than ideal.

[Travis Retrum]

Apologies, I was confusing this with your other thread where you included a pic of the software fader & meter.
Appendix 01 (page 114 of the PDF) states the output meters are "tapped just before the physical output" so I'd assume that is after the hardware control. Frankly, that is the only logical way for it to be configured IMO.
It's super easy to check though - with signal passing through the mixer, adjust the hardware knobs and see if the on screen meters follow.
Assuming the meters do track changes in the physical knob position, then you can fully rely on the software meters to tell you when you're near the limit.
HTH,
David.

Ok I will check, Thanks for all of your help

[Patrick Tracy]

If you measure yours I’d be curious to know! I don’t understand why this information isn’t in the manual.

Okay, just did the measurement. I generated a 60 Hz, -20 dBFS sine wave in Sound Forge, routed it through a line output from a Scarlett 6i6 (1st gen) to the 1/4" input of one of the combo sockets, set the channel eq to flat and the compressor to bypassed, set the channel and master faders to 0, set the gain to get -18 dBFS on the main meter.

The knobs are definitely after the main meter as changing them had no effect on it. At the 2:00 mark on the knob, the voltage was about 1.0. All the way up, the voltage was about 2.6. At 12:00 the voltage was about .33. Fully counterclockwise reduced the voltage to 0. I used a Cen-Tech 61593 meter, range set to 20 volts AC.

Due to the resolution of the output meter, what I was using as "-18 dBFS" could have been off a little. It's entirely possible that it actually translates to 1.228 volts. It's also possible that I was measuring peak to peak, which puts the 2:00 position right around 0 dBu. If someone more knowledgeable wants to look at the specs of my meter, they could probably give context to my numbers.

https://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/61000-61999/61593.pdf

[Travis Retrum]

Okay, just did the measurement. I generated a 60 Hz, -20 dBFS sine wave in Sound Forge, routed it through a line output from a Scarlett 6i6 (1st gen) to the 1/4" input of one of the combo sockets, set the channel eq to flat and the compressor to bypassed, set the channel and master faders to 0, set the gain to get -18 dBFS on the main meter.

The knobs are definitely after the main meter as changing them had no effect on it. At the 2:00 mark on the knob, the voltage was about 1.0. All the way up, the voltage was about 2.6. At 12:00 the voltage was about .33. Fully counterclockwise reduced the voltage to 0. I used a Cen-Tech 61593 meter, range set to 20 volts AC.

Due to the resolution of the output meter, what I was using as "-18 dBFS" could have been off a little. It's entirely possible that it actually translates to 1.228 volts. It's also possible that I was measuring peak to peak, which puts the 2:00 position right around 0 dBu. If someone more knowledgeable wants to look at the specs of my meter, they could probably give context to my numbers.

https://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/61000-61999/61593.pdf

Sorry it took me a while to respond back to this. Been busy. I confirmed with Harman the 2:00 position with the dot is the correct normal setting for these.

[Dan Richardson]

Sorry it took me a while to respond back to this. Been busy. I confirmed with Harman the 2:00 position with the dot is the correct normal setting for these.

I wonder how difficult it would be to bypass the knobs.

[Tim Hite]

Because for a power amp or final output stage, there is no such thing.

And because it was mostly "marketing speak" for Mackie, who successfully convinced far too many people that "unity" is some kind of special magic secret sauce.  It's not.  It never was.

I fondly recall the arrows and detents on the 1604 faders. . .it was a special time. . .

[Dan Richardson]

I confirmed with Harman the 2:00 position with the dot is the correct normal setting for these.

So does that match internal and D/A clipping, or???

[ProSoundWeb Community]