ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work  (Read 1157 times)

JohnReeve

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Honkytonk Sound Guy who can travel.
Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« on: June 07, 2023, 12:23:03 PM »

I know there are plenty of threads on specific mixers; I'd still find some critique of my thought process helpful.

I usually work low-rent honkytonks, private events, and small festivals but I'm trying to improve my equipment as I have been getting more gigs in my area. 

Part of that is upgrading my mixer.

Right now I have an xr18 and a cheap yamaha analog mixer, and these have worked fine for me.  I want a meaningful upgrade from this equipment, and I tend to keep equipment around a while once I own it.  I'm not borrowing money to do this upgrade, but it's still a lot for me to lay out so I'm being overly cautious.

I was previously considering an m32r (I like the size, price and there are a lot of them being used in my area, plus I've been using one this week and it has an acceptable UI).  However I am concerned about Music Tribe's service and support.  The ipad app for my xr18, for instance, no longer functions at all.  If I bought an m32 and it died, I may have a hard time replacing it quickly, and getting service for it sounds like an issue.  Also, I am usually the only one operating my rig, so I'm not too worried about other folk's ability to figure the mixer out quickly.  Finally, I don't like the lack of configurable layers/pop groups/etc.

- Is MT's service a legit worry? 
- How much would the other sound cos mixer setups guide your decisions here?  I am not thinking that I'd be able to do cross rentals, but it would be nice to be interoperable with folks AES50 equipment.

Due to my concerns about MT's service, right now I am pretty sure I want either an A&H sq5 (I like the size) or an sq6 (I like the channel count). 

- How would you approach making a decision between the sq5 and sq6?

If I go with an SQ, I definitely would like a stage box, but I am not sure if going with the AR2412 (it seems in-expensive for the features) or if getting the dante card and something like the yamaha Tio1608-D would be the better idea- I feel like in the long run it might be better to have dante-based equipment as it seems flexible compared to the dSNAKE equipment.  Being able to have, say, a couple of stage boxes either on a single large stage or reconfiguring them into several small rigs seems like it'd be worthwhile.

Alternatively, I have a 100' snake and I am very used to mixing with an iPad anyhow, and so if I went with the sq6 I could probably put off buying a stage box for a year or more, either running monitors or mains off the ipad.

- How would you decide between that more flexible stage box + mixer setup versus simply punting on that decision and mixing FOH on an ipad?
- how would you value the tradeoffs between dSNAKE and dante?
- how would you decide between a single AR2412 and a pair of AB168?

And, of course, I'll investigate any other suggestions along the lines of "meaningful upgrades from the xr18".  Thanks!
Logged
See yall at Kerrville Folk Festival!

Rob Stevens

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 44
  • Rob Stevens
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2023, 12:47:08 PM »

I think knowing your budget and required channel count would be helpful.

I would also suggest getting the Mixstation app (pay for the pro version) for your XR18, it to me is the best UI, out there and can work on other Mixer/Forms other than X series.

I have an X32R, as well as I have an X32 Producer, and have access to at least 3 other X32Rs that friends have, I have not really had any reliability issues with them, but I have had a nightmare getting parts for my Turbosound IQ10 speakers (Music Tribe product), so I understand your point there, and I really wish there were some better offerings out there for other brands of Rack mixers. (Not a fan of the Presonus or QSC offerings here)

From the sound of most of your gigs I am thinking most your mixing is going to be on a tablet/laptop other than the festival gigs, for me the Rack form is crucial as some of the places i do sound at are quite small, when doing an outdoor/festival thing I would then consider bringing the Producer, or another board I have access too (M32/X32/Wing).

If you can manage the space and have the budget I would be very tempted to go with SQ5.
Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23782
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2023, 01:39:43 PM »

The shop I managed until the owners retired in January had 4 X/M32.  None required service from Music Tribe/Group/Horde.  I used the M32Rack a lot and ended up liking the fader bank flipping.

There are "pop" groups available starting in firmware version 4.xx, IIRC but I'll have to check on a console to verify.

I've had enough time on the X/M32, Avid and Yamaha desks that I find A-H and DigiCo frustrating to use.  If I were to have to use those, it would be a rough several months until I was fluent, and at this point in my career I don't give a flying flock of seagulls about supporting either A-H or SD anything. /rant

The failure point I've been seeing in the X/M32 line is failing inputs/outputs in DL and S-32 snake boxes.  Encoders and switches operated by gorilla mixerpersons are also points of failure but are a matter of handling and care, not a design or build failure.

Logged
"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Stephen Swaffer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2673
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2023, 01:44:29 PM »


Due to my concerns about MT's service, right now I am pretty sure I want either an A&H sq5 (I like the size) or an sq6 (I like the channel count). 

- How would you approach making a decision between the sq5 and sq6?


Channel count is actually the same-just fewer faders and local inputs-but maybe that was what you meant?
Logged
Steve Swaffer

JohnReeve

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Honkytonk Sound Guy who can travel.
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2023, 01:58:13 PM »

Channel count is actually the same-just fewer faders and local inputs-but maybe that was what you meant?

Yes.  If I don't have a stage box for some reason, the local channel count is pretty much the whole channel count.

I think knowing your budget and required channel count would be helpful.

I would also suggest getting the Mixstation app (pay for the pro version) for your XR18, it to me is the best UI, out there and can work on other Mixer/Forms other than X series.

Yes, the mixstation app is quite an upgrade for sure.  But the fact that they aren't updating their app is disturbing to me. 

I need at least 16 channels for what I do, but 24 would be helpful.

I believe that I will have to spend at least 4K on this upgrade, but if I had to go as high as 10 I could do that. 

There are "pop" groups available starting in firmware version 4.xx, IIRC but I'll have to check on a console to verify.

I've had enough time on the X/M32, Avid and Yamaha desks that I find A-H and DigiCo frustrating to use.  If I were to have to use those, it would be a rough several months until I was fluent, and at this point in my career I don't give a flying flock of seagulls about supporting either A-H or SD anything. /rant

I will look into that feature.  First glance it looks like they are calling it DCA Spill or something. I agree that the fader flip on that mixer works a-okay for my uses.

Not being interested in AH is totally fair, of course.  I'm pretty nerdy about this stuff, though so I'm not too worried about getting fluent on a mixer I own just cause I spend a lot of time dickin' around with stuff when I can.
Logged
See yall at Kerrville Folk Festival!

Scott Bolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1768
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2023, 02:04:06 PM »

It really depends on your budget.

The SQ is a better mixer.  It is newer than the X32 lineup and has a more powerful processing engine; however, it is significantly more expensive.

My advice for your situation would be:

1) X32 Rack with an SD16 and roller rack.  This gives you 32 XLR inputs + Six 1/4" inputs which is more than enough for most any show you are likely to do (as you are currently getting by with an XR18).  It is inexpensive and VERY unlikely to ever need any support.  Tablet mixing is more than sufficient for the lions share of venues, and honestly, any venue that tablet mixing would be insufficient for is going to need a higher class of mixer than the X32 anyway.  In full disclosure, I have owned my X32 Rack since 2013 and never had an issue.  I have several friends that have them and none of them have had any issues.  I not sure I have ever heard of anyone on a forum ever having a problem with one either.

2)  Higher priced, but more powerful is the SQ.  I would go with the SQ5 and a stage box.  This will allow you to have higher channel count than the X32 and the flexibility of having a physical work surface with a digital snake if you are in a venue where this is possible.
Logged

Alec Spence

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 647
  • Herts, UK
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2023, 04:33:09 PM »

I've had enough time on the X/M32, Avid and Yamaha desks that I find A-H and DigiCo frustrating to use.
Interesting.  I've used X32 for years, and can whizz my way around it, but would not want to have to try and do much IO routing in the heat of the moment.  On SQ, it's a piece of cake.

Yes, the mixstation app is quite an upgrade for sure.  But the fact that they aren't updating their app is disturbing to me. 
FFS, there's a really well maintained, and well regarded app available - what's the issue?  I suspect part of the reason Bheringer gave up on the app was that it was no longer really necessary.  Though do you realise that they're currently developing the MX-Mix multi-platform app?  It's in a very long slow beta phase, likely to be pants compared with Mixing Station.  But they are doing this.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2023, 06:19:09 PM by Alec Spence »
Logged

David Morison

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 822
  • Aberdeen, Scotland
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2023, 05:24:13 PM »

Due to my concerns about MT's service, right now I am pretty sure I want either an A&H sq5 (I like the size) or an sq6 (I like the channel count). 

- How would you approach making a decision between the sq5 and sq6?

As others have said, total amounts of I/O are the same assuming you use stage boxes,  so it really comes down to your mixing style - do you need the extra faders (and soft keys/knobs) to manage your workload, or are you OK with using layers, DCA's etc to accomplish that? Given you're on an XR18 at the moment, I'd assume the latter, so SQ5 seems to be perfectly appropriate IMO.

Quote
If I go with an SQ, I definitely would like a stage box, but I am not sure if going with the AR2412 (it seems in-expensive for the features) or if getting the dante card and something like the yamaha Tio1608-D would be the better idea

I don't know for sure but I strongly suspect the Yamaha stagebox won't talk to the A&H mixer. Dante is a transport protocol but AFAIK it does not give you control of things like preamp gain or phantom power so any manufacturer using it for mixer-stagebox connection is probably adding some extra data to the stream to accomplish that - which is probably not interchangeable. You definitely need to do due diligence in researching that before pulling the trigger.

Quote
I feel like in the long run it might be better to have dante-based equipment as it seems flexible compared to the dSNAKE equipment. 
<snip>
- how would you value the tradeoffs between dSNAKE and dante?

I'm not much of a dante user, so again, please do do more research but in my mind Dante is more useful for creating larger networks. For a basic mixer to even a handful of stageboxes, I just don't think it adds anything assuming you can get all the I/O you need within the dSnake setup. If you think you'll expand beyond this in the next few years, by all means go Dante.

HTH,
David.
Logged

Helge A Bentsen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1777
  • Oslo, Norway.
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2023, 06:12:47 PM »

My preferred small mixer platform is a M32R with a DL251.
Sounds good and has a really small footprint.
Don't like the SQ, but would buy one if I needed to fill riders.
Service and parts availability IME is about the same for both platforms where I live.
Logged

Russell Ault

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2514
  • Edmonton, AB
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2023, 06:24:13 PM »

{...} getting the dante card and something like the yamaha Tio1608-D {...}

Just be aware that, if you go this route, you won't be able to control the headamps on the Tio1608-D from an SQ-series console (i.e. all headamp adjustments will need to be done with Yamaha's "R Remote" software running on a separate computer of some kind).

-Russ
Logged

Spenser Hamilton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 756
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2023, 07:25:25 PM »

- Is MT's service a legit worry?

Absolutely yes, if it breaks just throw it away.

I switched from M32 to SQ6 for my personal console - and run SD consoles at work - the SQ6 sounds fantastic and packs a lot of horsepower into a very small package.

The included TubeStage is nice coming from SD consoles (I love my DigiTubes), the included FX are passable to good and the add-on FX (at least the ones I've toyed with) are quite good.
Logged
Technical Director - Chatham Capitol Theatre/Kiwanis Theatre

Alec Spence

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 647
  • Herts, UK
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2023, 08:08:37 AM »

I switched from M32 to SQ6 for my personal console - and run SD consoles at work - the SQ6 sounds fantastic and packs a lot of horsepower into a very small package.

Pros/cons for me as follows:

X/M32 wins - Much better scribble strips.
X-32 Edit app on PC is much better than anything A&H have.
Cheap, everywhere, and available.
Much more flexible use of USB drive for scenes and audio playback - SQ-DRIVE is very restrictive, cryptic and unfriendly.
Wider range of effects, that don't require additional spend.

SQ wins - Fully customisable layers.
Superbly quick and easy I/O patching - hands down superior to X/M32 in every way.
Proper stereo channels - using just a single fader.
Up to 12 stereo mix-busses, as long as you have the I/O available.
48 full inputs.
Irritating - doesn't store mono/stereo inputs/output assignments in scenes
Ability to record 32 tracks to USB drive
Logged

John Schalk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 596
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2023, 08:46:13 AM »

For me the question to ask yourself is, are there features in the SQ platform that you want or need?  To put the question another way, are there limitations in the X/M 32 platform that you want to avoid?  Here are the three things that I think are good reasons for considering a different console platform:
  • You need more than 32 mic pre-amps
  • You need more than 16 mix buses/groups.  For instance, mixing FOH and stereo in ears from the same console.
  • You need more than 4 stereo advanced rack effects slots. I'd like to use the Combinator more, but I have to give up an Effect to do so.
If none of those limitations apply to you, then it's really hard to beat the value that the X/M 32 platform offers.  You can get a compact console, remote stage box, and X32 Rack or M32 Core for the price of a console and stage box for any other system.  To me, having a fully redundant mixing platform is worth a lot.  My X32 Rack rides to gigs in the front of the van with the other spares.  What is your backup plan if buy an SQ?

With respect to Mountain Tribe's service, all of the failures that I know of with X32s pretty much fall into the "wore out" category.  By that I mean sticky faders or encoder knobs, and a main view screen.  Those parts are available, so getting an out of warranty X32 repaired is more about having access to a good electronics repair shop than working with MT.  A club I work at bought a new M32 two years ago and its display was purple.  We bought in from Sweetwater, so they sent us a new one and we shipped that one back.  I'm not trying to make light of the issues people have had with getting warranty service from MT, but digital consoles are also not powered speakers that a DJ can blow up.
Logged

Thomas Le

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1145
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2023, 09:05:56 AM »

Yes, the mixstation app is quite an upgrade for sure.  But the fact that they aren't updating their app is disturbing to me. 
This is false, there was an update 1 month ago.
Logged

Dave Garoutte

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3405
  • San Rafael, CA
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2023, 12:09:42 PM »

This is false, there was an update 1 month ago.
Plus, it's basically one guy and a labor of love in his spare time.
Logged
Nothing can be made idiot-proof; only idiot resistant.

Events.  Stage, PA, Lighting and Backline rentals.
Chauvet dealer.  Home of the Angler.
Inventor.  And now, Streaming Video!

JohnReeve

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Honkytonk Sound Guy who can travel.
Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2023, 12:31:38 PM »

Plus, it's basically one guy and a labor of love in his spare time.

Sorry to be unclear-- I love the mixstation app, it is indeed updated.  I intended no slander there- it's a big upgrade.  Having two tap buttons for delay plus some configurable layers is great.

I was referring to the Behringer x-air app, which is not being updated as far as I know.

JR
Logged
See yall at Kerrville Folk Festival!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Mixer Upgrade - Help mah brain do its work
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2023, 12:31:38 PM »


Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.047 seconds with 20 queries.