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[Herman Chigrin]

Hey guys,
I'd like to lay down my preliminary plans for a "force cancelling PA sub" and get your feedback on my implementation of this concept.
It is sort of like placing a pair of ported cabinets back-to-back, with a total depth of 24 to 30 inches.

The concept is simple but has a potential problem (and I don't know if it is a problem) so I would love to hear your thoughts.

First, I will list my "wants":
Scalable, so one or more cabinets, depending on the application: outdoors, or indoor venue such as a bar or a club.
A pair of 12" or 15" drivers per cabinet, one on the front and one on the back.
Ports on the front only
Simple to build in multiples
Mobile cabinet and not too big and heavy
Cabinet depth of 24" to 30", stackable for use in multiples
Needed bandwidth of 30-150hz

Why force cancelling? The reason is many venues are built in such a way that the vibrations from subwoofers are transfers to the building structure. It is problem for DJs and vinyl playback as well as causing the entire venue to vibrate. The goal is to minimize this problem to not have to fix it down the road.

What is the potential problem? Well, here is where this concept may hit a dead end. The issue of the front woofer to back woofer offset that is tied on the depth of the subwoofer, 24" to 30" inches. It will cause a delay between woofers from the listener location. There will probably be a NULL in the freq response but where? What kind of irregularities can I expect in the radiation pattern around the sub? What happens when I use multiples, lets say a stack of 3x3 -- now the distance from front to back woofer is greater than that of single box. Will this create a NULL in the front and rear radiation pattern?
Is it a cardioid type of a NULL?

Most certainly there will be a NULL somewhere, tied to the offset of drivers, but where? Will it be audible in a room? Outside?

This sketch is based on above criteria:

Please let me know your view on this design.

[Steve-White]

Have a look at cardioid subwoofer deployment/configuration.  You would be better off with both drivers facing front and in multiples just rotate the proper ratio of cabinets to the rear.

[Tim Weaver]

What you are searching for is a "Cardioid array". It has been done a few times in a single cabinet, but I don't think they've been super popular so far. Most people would rather buy multiples of a regular sub and when an array is needed you just put 2 facing forward and one facing rear (for example. There are other ways to do this).


https://gearsource.com/master-product/meyer-psw-6-high-power-cardioid-subwoofer/37563/

[Tim McCulloch]

https://soundforums.net/articles/measurement-and-optimization/advanced-subwoofer-techniques-190498/

Article by Bennett Prescott, currently the USA rep for B&C loudspeakers.

I'd suggest a search for "directional subwoofer arrays" to find other background and engineering.  EV/Bosch, EAW, JBL (look for the white paper on Forward Steered Arrays)... and others have wonderful resources to get a better understanding of how each method works.

The basic problem that remains is that a directional sub array is not a complete answer to problems with noise pollution from a disco, concert venue, night club or other source of amplified sound.  The amount of rear cancellation is insufficient because you still have a full "pressure zone" inside the room or building, and the entire structure can still resonate.

While I'm a user and promoter of directional subwoofer arrays, they are not a noise control panacea.  You'd best direct money and attention to the architecture and engineering of the venue with an eye/ear to controlling resonance and transmission from the structure itself and mitigating leaks caused by doors, windows, or other envelope penetrations.

[Dave Garoutte]

Part of the stated goal is to keep physical vibrations from transferring to the floor, etc.
Short of using 6" of concrete for the cabinet, it will always have some contact transfer.
So, isolate it with sorbothane, or damping springs on a platform, or some such.
The audio sub frequencies will themselves get things vibrating, so I think there's only so much you can do.

[Herman Chigrin]

What you are searching for is a "Cardioid array". It has been done a few times in a single cabinet, but I don't think they've been super popular so far. Most people would rather buy multiples of a regular sub and when an array is needed you just put 2 facing forward and one facing rear (for example. There are other ways to do this).


https://gearsource.com/master-product/meyer-psw-6-high-power-cardioid-subwoofer/37563/

I was actually referring to a "simple" non-cardioid but force cancelling woofer arrangement. However, speaking of cardioid subs, are they really useful in a small venue, when the subs are in close proximity to the walls?

My idea was to try a force-cancelling design where the sub doesn't rattle everything it's sitting on just because mechanical vibration transfer is often a real issue with vinyl playback (DJs). But I see that the 24" front to back woofer offset will create a null right above the operating bandwith -- probably not a good start, yeah?

[Steve-White]

I was actually referring to a "simple" non-cardioid but force cancelling woofer arrangement. However, speaking of cardioid subs, are they really useful in a small venue, when the subs are in close proximity to the walls?

My idea was to try a force-cancelling design where the sub doesn't rattle everything it's sitting on just because mechanical vibration transfer is often a real issue with vinyl playback (DJs). But I see that the 24" front to back woofer offset will create a null right above the operating bandwith -- probably not a good start, yeah?

For vinyl systems in clubs the best results I obtained was using a parametric eq capable of notch filtering.

[Herman Chigrin]

For vinyl systems in clubs the best results I obtained was using a parametric eq capable of notch filtering.

Sure, I will have that capability with DSP but I'm looking at the possibility of an inherently less vibration causing sub design. Doesn't push pull type cancel out the even order distortion? Also reduce the mechanical vibration?

[Tim Weaver]

For vinyl systems in clubs the best results I obtained was using a parametric eq capable of notch filtering.

Years ago when DJ's were still using Vinyl we would put the turntables on floating decks that were connected to the slab. It would be a sch40 pipe cemented to the slab that stuck up through the DJ booth and had a plate on top big enough for the turntable. That way the vibrations of the booth wouldn't effect the turntables. Less feedback, and no skipping.

[Herman Chigrin]

Years ago when DJ's were still using Vinyl we would put the turntables on floating decks that were connected to the slab. It would be a sch40 pipe cemented to the slab that stuck up through the DJ booth and had a plate on top big enough for the turntable. That way the vibrations of the booth wouldn't effect the turntables. Less feedback, and no skipping.

Yes, I have done similar when there was a possibility such as an outdoor stage or a building with concrete slab.

HOWEVER, in Chicago, this is often not a possibility because there is either a basement below or just all wood joist contruction. So no slab that is available to connect with.

Still I will have to come up with something reasonable. Perhaps I start with selecting 15" or 12" sub drivers that are optimized for a compact box.

Any suggestions for such a driver?

[Tim Weaver]

Yes, I have done similar when there was a possibility such as an outdoor stage or a building with concrete slab.

HOWEVER, in Chicago, this is often not a possibility because there is either a basement below or just all wood joist contruction. So no slab that is available to connect with.

Still I will have to come up with something reasonable. Perhaps I start with selecting 15" or 12" sub drivers that are optimized for a compact box.

Any suggestions for such a driver?

Couple hundred pounds of concrete sitting on the pier and beam floor makes an effective mass tho.

For driver's I'd look at B&C first. Then maybe 18sound. Or if you just want to experiment to prove out the concept the cheaper Eminence drivers are actually great performers, but don't expect to get very deep with them. I'd probably buy some Delta-LF series from Eminence and build 3 separate cabinets that could be stacked in different ways to experiment with to see if the concept even works. Delta series are cheap, stamped frame drivers, but they punch well above their weight. They've been used for decades in music store subs and bass cabinets as far as I can remember. Remember, these would be for proof-of-concept. No the end product.

[Tim Weaver]

By the way, we've given you all the ways to research cardioid subs. If you are planning on just sticking two drivers in opposite ends of a cab it won't work. You can try that right now by stacking one sub on top of another and spin one around backwards.

The concept can work, but it requires processing in the form of a delay applied to one or both subs.


If you are looking for subs that jiggle less you can also look at push-pull designs. There are some of these that use driver orientation to cancel out some harmonic resonances in the cabinet itself. EAW made a bunch of designs with that idea.

[Tim McCulloch]

By the way, we've given you all the ways to research cardioid subs. If you are planning on just sticking two drivers in opposite ends of a cab it won't work. You can try that right now by stacking one sub on top of another and spin one around backwards.

The concept can work, but it requires processing in the form of a delay applied to one or both subs.


If you are looking for subs that jiggle less you can also look at push-pull designs. There are some of these that use driver orientation to cancel out some harmonic resonances in the cabinet itself. EAW made a bunch of designs with that idea.

One can experiment with "polarity flipped, cabinet reversed, delayed driver" cardioid by simply moving the "reverse" sub further up stage if no electronic delay is available.  If one has a Smaart rig, this can be an excellent teaching tool as it "opens the eyes to time, which is not seen."

[Steve-White]

Yes, I have done similar when there was a possibility such as an outdoor stage or a building with concrete slab.

HOWEVER, in Chicago, this is often not a possibility because there is either a basement below or just all wood joist contruction. So no slab that is available to connect with.

Still I will have to come up with something reasonable. Perhaps I start with selecting 15" or 12" sub drivers that are optimized for a compact box.

Any suggestions for such a driver?

One of the club installs I did back in the mid 80's was upstairs in an old ice packing plant.  When the dance floor was packed the whole floor moved around.  What we did was build a heavy console for the turntables and mixer and suspended it from the ceiling joists with all-thread.

Successfully using turntables many times takes some creative out of the box thinking for sure.

We used isolation damping on the turntables as well for the sonic feedback once things were decoupled from the building sway.  We used layers of 1" MDF sitting on latex foam pads which worked well.

Decoupling and mass are your friend.

[ProSoundWeb Community]