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Author Topic: Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live  (Read 1368 times)

Mark Scrivener

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Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live
« on: April 03, 2023, 01:17:15 AM »

OK, this is really living on the edge, but entertain me for a moment.

If one were to use one or more Dante stage boxes (Yamaha Tio1608-D, Allen & Heath DT168, etc) and connect it directly to a laptop running Dante Virtual sound card and the DAW of your choice (say Reaper with only native plugs), would this work? And what type of end to end latency do you think this would provide?

I realize the potential for a crash, but several of the consoles out there are really Linux boxes inside, and one could build a Linux machine for this (Intel NUC, or even a laptop, touch screen, etc). While I wouldn't show up to a big dollar gig with a system like this, it could be just the ticket for some install setups or even a band that wanted to emulate the sound of their recording sessions live. I've read about people doing live shows with DAWs before, but didn't really think about using Dante stage boxes with such a setup until now.

I'm sure this will be a controversial topic, but I'm really curious, would this work? Are people doing it? I guess you could call it a roll your own Waves LV1 setup.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2023, 03:44:08 AM by Mark Scrivener »
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2023, 06:40:14 AM »

No reason it shouldn't work on the Dante side, your main challenge would be preamp gain.
There is a rather large music show on tv over here that's mixed in Pro Tools in the OB truck.
They have plenty of rehearsals of course, but the show is live on tape mixed in a DAW.
OB truck also feeds backstage/wardrobe monitoring and stem mixes orchestra parts(if any) and tracks (lots) for the PA mixer.
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Mark Scrivener

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Re: Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2023, 02:31:45 PM »

No reason it shouldn't work on the Dante side, your main challenge would be preamp gain.

Yep, I figured that part might be a bit klugey since you would have to open a separate program to set preamp gains. Then again, it might be possible from a plugin within the DAW

Quote
There is a rather large music show on tv over here that's mixed in Pro Tools in the OB truck.
They have plenty of rehearsals of course, but the show is live on tape mixed in a DAW.
OB truck also feeds backstage/wardrobe monitoring and stem mixes orchestra parts(if any) and tracks (lots) for the PA mixer.

Funny you should mention broadcast. Someone told me Dante Virtual Soundcard (in their experience) requires large buffers and thus introduces too much latency, so they were only using it for broadcast/streaming.

Matthew Knischewsky

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Re: Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2023, 03:09:41 PM »

Yep, I figured that part might be a bit klugey since you would have to open a separate program to set preamp gains. Then again, it might be possible from a plugin within the DAW

Funny you should mention broadcast. Someone told me Dante Virtual Soundcard (in their experience) requires large buffers and thus introduces too much latency, so they were only using it for broadcast/streaming.

For Yamaha TIO/RIO the program to control the preamps is R Remote.

Lowest latency supported on DVS is 4ms. Likely not a problem for live FOH but it WOULD be a problem for IEMs. Wedges... maybe. Then there's the latency that the DAW would introduce.

https://dev.audinate.com/GA/dvs/userguide/webhelp/content/dante_latency.htm

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Tim Weaver

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Re: Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2023, 05:31:16 PM »

Tio/Rio boxes can be used like any other interface on a computer. I wouldn't even call it that flakey since its running over TCP-IP and that is pretty reliable.

The round trip latency over dante is small, except when you introduce a computer running DVS, then it can be up to 10ms. In use it's usually much lower than that, but still not usable for iems. I would fine mixing FOH on it though as long as the DAW latency is managed well.

Using Reaper with built in plugs is also a good idea. Low demand, low latency, high reliability. And the stock rea-plugs are good.
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Mark Scrivener

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Re: Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2023, 06:52:21 PM »

Thanks Matthew and Tim. So it sounds like DVS is the main latency contributor. Any good, low latency Dante to say USB boxes that might solve this problem?

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2023, 07:54:47 PM »

Thanks Matthew and Tim. So it sounds like DVS is the main latency contributor. Any good, low latency Dante to say USB boxes that might solve this problem?

The Codec that syncs Dante, and the AD/DA conversion has a minimum overhead of 4ms.  You ain't breaking' the laws of physics, Mr. Scott.

If you need less, go analog.
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Mark Scrivener

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Re: Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2023, 08:24:54 PM »

The Codec that syncs Dante, and the AD/DA conversion has a minimum overhead of 4ms.  You ain't breaking' the laws of physics, Mr. Scott.

If you need less, go analog.

I would think sync would be the main contributor. AD/DA could be as fast as a single sample time. Note that several modern digital desks claim <1ms analog to analog. Not that we really need that fast, a few msec should be fine (total latency). So is the 4ms minimum one way or round trip? If it is round trip then it should be ok. If that is one way, coupled with some possible latency from the computer/DAW and you are around 10ms total.....enough to drive someone with IEM's nuts.

Tim Weaver

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Re: Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2023, 08:41:21 PM »

4ms round trip for DVS as far as I can tell.

It's because you are doing the in/out (it's not AD/DA at this point) via software emulation using the built in ethernet NIC and not with dedicated hardware.

I have a PC with the Focusrite Rednet PCIeR card in it and it has extremely low round trip latency. I use it for plugins on my desk. Of course this is a 900 dollar dedicated soundcard. It better have low latency.
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Matthew Knischewsky

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Re: Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2023, 09:54:33 AM »

Any good, low latency Dante to say USB boxes that might solve this problem?

If there were a device that did this I would imagine this would be past the point of diminishing returns of using Dante for this. Dante is great for a lot of things but low latency straight into a DAW is a limitation. Some associates who are building a studio chose to use Merging Horus interfaces/MADI in their set-up over anything Dante due to latency concerns. I'm not privy to every factor that went into decision this but it's safe to say that being economical was not on their list of considerations. If you're set on using a DAW with low(er) latency it looks like Dante is not the way to go.
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Re: Dante Stage boxes and a DAW - Live
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2023, 09:54:33 AM »


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