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[Adam W Lambert]

Howdy folks!

I'm looking for a way to duck a stereo backing tack under female vocals live. More specifically, I want a way to fit the vocals into the mix automatically. I use a plugin called smart:comp https://www.sonible.com/blog/spectral-ducking-smartcomp/ to do this in my DAW, but the latency is too high for live monitoring/performance.

Here is the use case. I produce a live-streaming yoga studio where the instructor is frequently talking over the music, and her voice gets lost in the mix. I have used an auto ducker, but it is a bit too distracting since it lowers the levels across the board. We need the setup to be automated, so we don't need someone on the board at every session.

I imagine a piece of gear that can do sidechain multiband compression with low enough latency for a live performance.

I've read that the Presonus Studio Live and A&H QU and SQ boards have some version of this built-in, but I have difficulty finding documentation describing how to do what I need.

I'm entirely open to new ideas on how to accomplish this, or if any of you can confirm if one of these mixers (or any other) fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it.

I appreciate any help you can provide.

Adam

[Matthias McCready]

Howdy folks!

I'm looking for a way to duck a stereo backing tack under female vocals live. More specifically, I want a way to fit the vocals into the mix automatically. I use a plugin called smart:comp https://www.sonible.com/blog/spectral-ducking-smartcomp/ to do this in my DAW, but the latency is too high for live monitoring/performance.

Here is the use case. I produce a live-streaming yoga studio where the instructor is frequently talking over the music, and her voice gets lost in the mix. I have used an auto ducker, but it is a bit too distracting since it lowers the levels across the board. We need the setup to be automated, so we don't need someone on the board at every session.

I imagine a piece of gear that can do sidechain multiband compression with low enough latency for a live performance.

I've read that the Presonus Studio Live and A&H QU and SQ boards have some version of this built-in, but I have difficulty finding documentation describing how to do what I need.

I'm entirely open to new ideas on how to accomplish this, or if any of you can confirm if one of these mixers (or any other) fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it.

I appreciate any help you can provide.

Adam

For the A&H SQ the channel compressor can be keyed to another channel, and it you can select what frequencies it is looking at, this would effectively accomplish what you are looking for. While technically this would be compressing everything rather than a specific frequency (such as a dynamic EQ or multi band compressor) the result, since it is frequency specific, is close enough.

The most advanced tool for live, that I have found, is having a Waves setup running the F6 plugin, this offers 6 dynamic EQ bands which can be activated by a 2nd source per instance of the F6 plugin; however I would presume that Waves would be cost prohibitive for your setup.

[Matthew Knischewsky]

Hi Adam, the device you likely want to use in this application is a ducker. The ducker would be inserted on the music and the key or trigger input of the ducker would be the voice. In the past there were hardware units that were specific to this task (Symetrix 306 comes to mind) but now many digital consoles have this feature built in.

To get this to sound natural some adjustment between the threshold, depth of attenuation, hold and release is necessary. As a starting point I would suggest between 3-6db of attenuation to start. Deeper attenuation will sound increasingly more unnatural.

The A&H QU series does support a ducker as a channel insert.

[Adam W Lambert]

For the A&H SQ the channel compressor can be keyed to another channel, and it you can select what frequencies it is looking at, this would effectively accomplish what you are looking for. While technically this would be compressing everything rather than a specific frequency (such as a dynamic EQ or multi band compressor) the result, since it is frequency specific, is close enough.

The most advanced tool for live, that I have found, is having a Waves setup running the F6 plugin, this offers 6 dynamic EQ bands which can be activated by a 2nd source per instance of the F6 plugin; however I would presume that Waves would be cost prohibitive for your setup.

Got it ... thank you.

Yeah, I think the waves setup is out of our budget but that gives me some ideas about how I could use the SQ.

Thanks again. 

[Adam W Lambert]

Hi Adam, the device you likely want to use in this application is a ducker. The ducker would be inserted on the music and the key or trigger input of the ducker would be the voice. In the past there were hardware units that were specific to this task (Symetrix 306 comes to mind) but now many digital consoles have this feature built in.

To get this to sound natural some adjustment between the threshold, depth of attenuation, hold and release is necessary. As a starting point I would suggest between 3-6db of attenuation to start. Deeper attenuation will sound increasingly more unnatural.

The A&H QU series does support a ducker as a channel insert.

Okay that's great to know and thank you for eh specific attenuation suggestion.

[Scott Helmke]

Depending on what your hardware is capable of, you could split the music into several input channels, EQ drastically to create frequency bands, and side-chain compress the appropriate channel(s) with the voice signal.

[Adam W Lambert]

For the A&H SQ the channel compressor can be keyed to another channel, and it you can select what frequencies it is looking at, this would effectively accomplish what you are looking for. While technically this would be compressing everything rather than a specific frequency (such as a dynamic EQ or multi band compressor) the result, since it is frequency specific, is close enough.

The most advanced tool for live, that I have found, is having a Waves setup running the F6 plugin, this offers 6 dynamic EQ bands which can be activated by a 2nd source per instance of the F6 plugin; however I would presume that Waves would be cost prohibitive for your setup.

Quick follow up...

I found an article describing something like what you're suggesting with the SQ on the presonus page.

Does this sound like the same thing as what you're describing or am I off base?

"The key filter can be sidechained to another channel. Sidechaining has many uses. You can use sidechained key filter to tighten up a rhythm section by sidechaining the kick drum channel to the bass channel and setting the gate to open at the frequency of the kick drum. This, combined with a fast attack and release, will make your rhythm section more cohesive. Increase the release time to loosen the feel." emphasis mine

In my case I'd key to the vocal range instead of a kick...

Thanks again

Adam

[John Roberts {JR}]

Ducking and use of external side chain processing is an old widely used studio trick. In live sound there can be other subtle issues.

 I would lower your expectations and start experimenting. If you can at a band practice all the better.

JR

[Adam W Lambert]

Thanks for the help and ideas guys! I truly appreciate it.

I think I'm going to pick up a Presonus StudioLive 16 Series III and make the most of it.

Take care,

Adam

[Jordan Wolf]

I vote for a dynamic EQ on the music channel keyed by the vocal mic to dip key frequency ranges for “body” and intelligibility.

[Adam W Lambert]

I vote for a dynamic EQ on the music channel keyed by the vocal mic to dip key frequency ranges for “body” and intelligibility.

Yes! That's precisely what I'm looking for. Are you aware of a hardware/plugin solution with low enough latency for live?

[Caleb Dueck]

Yes! That's precisely what I'm looking for. Are you aware of a hardware/plugin solution with low enough latency for live?

If this is an install, you should have QSys or Xilica or Symetrix type DSP; all of these should have this function.  Trying to install a sound console for an installed, non-audio-FOH-engineer user is the wrong tool for the job. 

[Matthias McCready]

If this is an install, you should have QSys or Xilica or Symetrix type DSP; all of these should have this function.  Trying to install a sound console for an installed, non-audio-FOH-engineer user is the wrong tool for the job.

^ This!

Yes! That's precisely what I'm looking for. Are you aware of a hardware/plugin solution with low enough latency for live?

The DiGiCo SD I run doesn't do this....

Perhaps there is a big boy console (read $40-200k) that does this natively (although not that I can think of, off the top of my head).

This is exactly what Waves running an F6 plugin can do, which is a heap cheaper than a large format desk, but still cost prohibitive for what you want to do.

---

Again if you have a basic console or controller (X32, SQ, QSYS etc) try keying the music channel comp to your mic, and key the frequency to the area where the music is masking the voice. This will get you pretty darn close to the same result.

[Riley Casey]

A possible work around based on say a CL or QL console. If it works it could be implemented on other consoles or even a standalone DSP depending on the architecture.

Instantiate a stereo dynamic EQ in the premium rack
-Run the announce mic into two channels, one that goes to the mix output and one that is only for triggering the insert.
-Insert the  dyn EQ into the processor mic channel, set a -12db wide bandwidth filter centered at 2k5hz and adjust the threshold to reliably trigger on the announce mic signal. Some pre insert compression might be in order or it may work better to feed this from an Aux.
-Insert the other channel of the stereo dynamic EQ in the music channel ( yea, gotta be mono to make this work ). Trim the music channel pre insert low enough enough that it does NOT trigger the filter.
-Confirm that you're getting the articulation range attenuation you want when the mic signal does trigger the EQ and dial up the post insert gain on the music channel to the desired level.

Yes the gain structure would be weird and yes it's a lot of bending over backwards but it 'should' ( might ) work.

[Jordan Wolf]

Are you aware of a hardware/plugin solution with low enough latency for live?

The BSS DPR-901 was a (“the”?) go-to Dynamic EQ hardware unit in its day.

You’d have to find one used, or the plug-in equivalent, but latency is not your friend, especially when it comes to inserts.

[ProSoundWeb Community]