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[Steve Gorg]

Hello everyone, been a long-time reader of the forums but this is my first post.  I've learned a lot over the years reading, really appreciate this resource!

We're planning for a permanent speaker install in our sanctuary, and I was hoping for some input.  The space is approximately 30 ft wide by 67 ft long (with a balcony at the back extending to 82 ft).  I've attached a couple of pictures of the space.  The vertical portions of the walls are 16 ft high, bottom of the trusses are 23 ft, and ceiling is 27 ft.  Capacity is just over 200 people, application is music and speech.  Music is typically a small band (2x vox, guitar, keys, bass, small drum set), decently loud for the room but nothing crazy (90-95 dB?). 

I was originally looking at a single JBL CBT 70J or 1000 mounted on the first truss from the front of the room, which is about 17 ft from the front wall (along with 18" sub on the stage).  However, we've since decided to remove the front portion of the stage for additional seating, so now I'll need coverage pretty close to directly under the first truss, and tilting the JBL down that aggressively isn't an option.

Coverage-wise I could probably get away with the JBL on the front wall up high, but I'm assuming locating the speaker behind the stage mics would be a terrible idea?

Otherwise, thinking either wall mounted (one pair just in front of the stage, one pair halfway back), or maybe one center speaker up high on the first truss and one on the third?  Other concepts?

Budget is around $5k for speakers, subs, and amps, could probably stretch a little for the right system.  Looking for value-for-money on this one, not top-end performance.  Thanks in advance for any help!

[Lee Douglas]

Is any of that truss work rated to have any sort of load suspended from them?

[Mike Caldwell]

For a reference have you already set up a PA of some type in that room with the band playing?

Your idea of some delay fill speakers is good to help even out the sound coverage. How to deploy the system is the next question.

The $5000 ish budget is really short to do this even with cutting a corner or two. You mentioned a JBL CBT1000 those are decent sounding speakers, just put some in an install but they sell for about $2500.

[John Schalk]

We're planning for a permanent speaker install in our sanctuary, and I was hoping for some input.  The space is approximately 30 ft wide by 67 ft long (with a balcony at the back extending to 82 ft).  I've attached a couple of pictures of the space.  The vertical portions of the walls are 16 ft high, bottom of the trusses are 23 ft, and ceiling is 27 ft. 

Steve,

Is the carpeted "stage" area included in your total room length on the main floor?  Can you tell us how deep the stage area is so we can have a better idea of the depth of the "audience" area in your sanctuary?  Also, are you open to purchasing used equipment?  In my area, a number of churches are replacing older "center cluster" designs with vertical or horizontal, powered, array systems.  The speakers that they are retiring are from high quality vendors such as EAW.  Depending on your final solution, you may be able to get more bang for your limited budget if you can find some used speakers that meet your needs.

[Steve Gorg]

For a reference have you already set up a PA of some type in that room with the band playing?

Your idea of some delay fill speakers is good to help even out the sound coverage. How to deploy the system is the next question.

The $5000 ish budget is really short to do this even with cutting a corner or two. You mentioned a JBL CBT1000 those are decent sounding speakers, just put some in an install but they sell for about $2500.

Existing setup is two EV ZLX-15BT's (powered) on ~6ft portable stands, one in each front corner of the stage area.  Main complaints are muddy sound (I assume primarily due to low speaker height relative to audience), volume differential front-to-back, and volunteer effort in setting up and tearing down the speakers each week.

The EV's are overpowered for our needs.  Typically run the integrated amps at -12 dB gain to achieve reasonable gains at the board and the volume we're looking for.  If it made sense, I suppose we could incorporate them into our new setup, though I don't love the idea of permanently installing powered speakers up high in case the amps ever need repair/replacement.

Regarding $5k budget, seemed doable when we were thinking one JBL CBT, one sub, and one amp to power both.  Understood that can't do much more than that.  $10k isn't out of the question to do it right, $20k is, if that helps.

[Steve Gorg]

Steve,

Is the carpeted "stage" area included in your total room length on the main floor?  Can you tell us how deep the stage area is so we can have a better idea of the depth of the "audience" area in your sanctuary?  Also, are you open to purchasing used equipment?  In my area, a number of churches are replacing older "center cluster" designs with vertical or horizontal, powered, array systems.  The speakers that they are retiring are from high quality vendors such as EAW.  Depending on your final solution, you may be able to get more bang for your limited budget if you can find some used speakers that meet your needs.

Carpeted stage is included in overall length, it's currently about 18 ft deep off the front wall, proposal is to shrink it to 12 ft deep.

Very open to used equipment, and would factor used availability heavily into decision on placement strategy.

[Steve Gorg]

Is any of that truss work rated to have any sort of load suspended from them?

Hi Lee.  "Rated" is a tricky word for trusses in a building this old as I'm sure you're aware.  The extent of our analysis is 1) the speaker weights we're considering represent a fraction of a percentage point of the dead loads for which these trusses are designed, 2) the short bottom horizontal member is loaded in horizontal tension and vertical upward bending, so the addition of a vertical downward load from a speaker should actually reduce stress in that local member, and 3) we'd be replacing an old heavy speaker (not used today) on the first truss that is cantilever-mounted off the front of the truss and has been in place for decades with a lighter speaker that is mounted more in-line with the truss.

[Mike Caldwell]

Just curious what is the old speaker? I can see it in picture....maybe, slim chance but maybe it's not so bad but just needs a little love and proper deployment and processing to do what you need or at least part of it.

[Steve Gorg]

Just curious what is the old speaker? I can see it in picture....maybe, slim chance but maybe it's not so bad but just needs a little love and proper deployment and processing to do what you need or at least part of it.

I don't know much beyond it's a Community with either a 12" or 15" woofer (hard to tell from the ground).  It's connected to an older PA system in the room that we don't use, I've heard it operate so it does work.

[Mike Caldwell]

I don't know much beyond it's a Community with either a 12" or 15" woofer (hard to tell from the ground).  It's connected to an older PA system in the room that we don't use, I've heard it operate so it does work.

Depending on the community model it could be fairly good to really good.
It appears to be mounted horizontally, the larger Community install speakers have a few different horn pattern options and the horns are rotatable, depending on the horn maybe it should have been rotated or maybe it was.

Just saying you may be able to put the speaker to use.

What are the other left over parts and pieces.

Get some binoculars and see if you can read the tag on the back.

[Steve Gorg]

What are the other left over parts and pieces.

Get some binoculars and see if you can read the tag on the back.

Right now we've got two powered EV ZLX-15BT's, two powered EV ZLX-12BT's (currently used as stage wedges, could be repurposed and replaced), and the tbd Community mounted up high.

[scottstephens]

Steve,

  Here is some non-audio, audio advice. Have some of the older ladies of the church make some banners out of a quilted material and hang them up on the walls. Bible verses, a picture of Jesus, whatever. It will work wonders.  And it won't cost the church very much at all or anything.  Now, listen to what the other guys have said and get 60 to 70 degree horn speakers and aim them down at the people.
Good Mixing.
scott

[Dave Pluke]

I was originally looking at a single JBL CBT 70J or 1000 ...

Coverage-wise I could probably get away with the JBL on the front wall up high, but I'm assuming locating the speaker behind the stage mics would be a terrible idea?

Last question first; yes, it's a pretty terrible idea  .

I installed a pair of CBT 70J's in a Synagogue and they performed very well. Even dispersion, relatively light weight and easy to hang off their wall brackets (you could mount them high on your side walls, angle and rotate as required, I believe). These were used for Spoken Word and a Cantor, so I don't know if they'd hold up to a band. A sub would definitely be in order, but I do like the "many small drivers" concept in a room like that.

Glad others have mentioned acoustic treatment. Is that balcony/choir loft well treated?

Dave

[BrianSimmons]

You definitely will get more even coverage the higher you have the speakers.  I would suggest a single mono speaker where that high speaker is now.  You will likely have to supplement this speaker with another one located farther back in the room - that is properly delayed in time to the front speaker.  Of course exactly where to place these speakers all of this depends on actual speaker and it's coverage pattern (which is not something I am prepared to suggest).  Keep in mind that speaker orientation plays a role in this, so don't mount a speaker horizontally if the desired coverage pattern is achieved when placed in a vertical orientation.   Some speakers produce the same coverage pattern in either orientation but many do not.

If the front high speaker ends up "shooting" over the heads of the people in the first couple of rows, this is when you supplement that speaker with some front fill speakers.  They should be mounted lower and set at a lower volume with the intent that only the people in the first couple of rows would hear them.  They may also need to be delayed to the front high speaker so the people sitting in the row(s) that overlap where they hear both speakers will hear them both in the same time.

[ProSoundWeb Community]