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[Mike Caldwell]

A good basic mix will trump a complex mix where you aren’t on top of basics.  I see touring shows where there are fundamental issues that have not been fully solved in pre production, not down to the room or even the kit.

YES!

Doesn't matter what the mixer is, many times people are playing with the shiny toys and have long since forgotten about getting the basics right.

[brian maddox]

YES!

Doesn't matter what the mixer is, many times people are playing with the shiny toys and have long since forgotten about getting the basics right.

One of the first gigs I did when I returned to the industry and digital had become firmly established was FOH Babysitter for a BE on an SC48, which I had never worked with before. I was genuinely curious to hear what could be done with a console with "plugins, etc.". Anyway, all I really remember from the gig is watching the FOH guy fiddling with all his plugins during the show while the various musical elements [guitar solos, key vocal parts, etc.] went completely unheard by the audience. And yes, this was the guy that traveled with this group.

Mind you, I saw that kind of thing back in the analog days as well, but it seems even easier now to get lost in the gadgets and forget that there is music happening on stage.

[Mike Caldwell]

One of the first gigs I did when I returnee to the industry and digital had become firmly established I was FOH Babysitter for a BE on SC48, which I had never worked with before. I was genuinely curious to hear what could be done with a console with "plugins, etc." could do. Anyway, all I really remember from the gig is watching the FOH guy fiddling with all his plugins during the show while the various musical elements [guitar solos, key vocal parts, etc.] went completely unheard by the audience. And yes, this was the guy that traveled with this group.

Mind you, I saw that kind of thing back in the analog days as well, but it seems even easier now to get lost in the gadgets and forget that there is music happening on stage.

YES


And it's still happening!


For the record, an S6L is so far out of my orbit I'll probably never be touching one.

[Tim McCulloch]

One of the first gigs I did when I returnee to the industry and digital had become firmly established I was FOH Babysitter for a BE on SC48, which I had never worked with before. I was genuinely curious to hear what could be done with a console with "plugins, etc." could do. Anyway, all I really remember from the gig is watching the FOH guy fiddling with all his plugins during the show while the various musical elements [guitar solos, key vocal parts, etc.] went completely unheard by the audience. And yes, this was the guy that traveled with this group.

Mind you, I saw that kind of thing back in the analog days as well, but it seems even easier now to get lost in the gadgets and forget that there is music happening on stage.

The Arte of Paying Attention® is not strained, but it falleth not as the gentle rains from heaven.

FWIW, in discussing training of a few of my Local's stagehands to be venue Sound Humans, I was told that maintaining level consistency was an *advanced topic*.  And was told this by one of our A1s.   

Plugins should do something audible that the stock on-board processing does not.  I like the way the Fairchild 660 sounded on records and I still like to use it as input strip compression/limiting, and nothing I do with the channel strip compressor sounds the same to me.  I know what the Fairchild does and what it sounds like.  Ten seconds to set parameters and I'm moving on.  On a corporate gig, compressing lavs and lectern mics?  Channel strip is likely just fine and dandy.  Plug in love on 'throw and go VDO' playback - the C6 multiband comp to tame some hiss and crunchy 2k-4k the video editor decided was essential, and limit the ELF the video editor couldn't hear in the suite.

But I've seen the mixerperson you're talking about.  There are several, actually.  I don't know if they're doing this for the artist's recording of the show or there's some other external motivation, but otherwise they're not listening to the music, they're listening to sounds.

YES


And it's still happening!


For the record, an S6L is so far out of my orbit I'll probably never be touching one.

I've touched a bunch of them, but only once as an operator.  For everything else I have gloves and carry a 8" adjustable wrench. nudge, wink

[Mike Caldwell]

I've touched a bunch of them, but only once as an operator.  For everything else I have gloves and carry a 8" adjustable wrench. nudge, wink

For lights, if not you also need a rubber mallet for fine adjustments and repairs?

[Tim McCulloch]

For lights, if not you also need a rubber mallet for fine adjustments and repairs?

Lights?  Damn, Mike, what have I ever done to you?  I pay people to deal with those!

Well... I confess that as a fork truck operator I've had to lift some trusses recently... 

[Matthew Knischewsky]

Mhm.
I don't carry showfiles for consoles I frequently encounter, I always start from scratch to avoid any issues with old settings and to keep myself up to speed setting up the console from its default state.

Where's the like button!

[[email protected]]

Most of the shows I do are me walking into equipment provided by others, with only an inkling of what the show will be about. Most often I can't create a template as I don't really know what exactly will be needed until I'm in the thick of it.
So, I typically zero any console I'm given, make my best guess at a starting point, and go on from there.
I've found that "changing your mind" after the fact on Avid equipment is not a great experience for myself OR the artist/producers/talent.
The Avid stuff seems to shine in the case of situations with a known event/artist/show where you can load up a file that is set for that specific use and go. Easy-peasy.
However, I don't do shows like that, so doing multiple events/artists on an Avid product is more difficult than on other products.

So I guess my answer to the question "why S6L" is that most people requesting them are NOT doing the kinds of shows that I do!

For me this sounds 2 things.
1) Avid S6L might not be the tool you are looking for
2) because you would need to first learn to use it from your backbone so that you would not have to figure out "on fly" how to do things in it

For me who has been working on multiple consoles, Avid S6L or Yamaha Rivage are the tools to go whenever it is possible, because I know those by heart and neither of those consoles are restricting me. They have a bit different twist on them, but I can make the best out of both.

When it comes to DiGiCo, I'm relatively happy also. I know how to use it from my backbone, but I just miss the good sounding FX on in, unless Waves is available.

Midas M32 is OK for the job it is enough. I have a band that I'm doing on M32, but on the other hand it is quite restrictive console, but it is really "bang for the buck".

Personally only console I have a decent experience and knowhow to use, and that really is a PITA to make big changes fast is dLive. It takes ages to create stereo PAIRS on in, and those are not even stereo channels, just PAIRS, no matter how those are named.

I used to like Midas Pro -series some 10+ yrs ago when they came out, but the more I worked on them, the more I found features missing / being combersome to use and those features newer came...

LAWO is mainly for television stuff anyway, and there EVERYTHING is pretty much pre-planned.

On Roland consoles I have such a limited experience, that I'm not going there. Would not be my choice due to lack of my knowledge and the same goes to Soundcraft.

So, based on this comment from you Andrew, I really start to see the basis for your original question and I would say that Avid S6L would be a good tool for you, but most of the things you are having doubts on it are things that needs that you learn the console so that you'll find the features and possible work-arounds fast from it.

This whole conversation underlines the fact that ALL the high end digital consoles are good and get you there, but you need to choose the one you like the most and then you start to get to know it.

edit: typos

[[email protected]]

Mhm.
I don't carry showfiles for consoles I frequently encounter, I always start from scratch to avoid any issues with old settings and to keep myself up to speed setting up the console from its default state.

This might work if the act is relatively straight forward, and I do occasionally work with that kind of band also, but my main artist, that I had pre-Covid some 100-120 shows / year, and we are slowly getting back there, is something that I could never do that with.

For that show I have a showfile with 100+ Events, 200+ snaphots, which are changing A LOT of stuff (incl. routing, FX sends, FX setups...) and there is NO way to know which songs and in which order they are going to play beforehand.

This is something that they pay good money for me to make possible, and the only way I have figured out so far to make it possible is good pre-work and programming.

edit: typos

[Andrew Broughton]

So, based on this comment from you Andrew, I really start to see the basis for your original question and I would say that Avid S6L would be a good tool for you, but most of the things you are having doubts on it are things that needs that you learn the console so that you'll find the features and possible work-arounds fast from it.

TBH, the main reason for my post is that I really think the console has some fundamental flaws, and to me they are so glaring, that I was trying to figure out why the heck it's so popular!
The secondary reason for my post was that because it's so often requested or required by artists, I often have no choice but to use it, so I would like to figure out how can I work around it's limitations to better serve the OTHER artists on the bill.


At the end of the day, I just want to provide the best possible service to the artist, talent and customer. This console makes that more difficult than some others, so maybe let's figure out how to do better. Be that a better understanding of the system on my part, and/or improvements on Avid's part, if, as was said, they do listen to customer's input and make changes?


Thank you to all who contributed to this thread - it's all very educational for me!

[ProSoundWeb Community]