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Author Topic: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall  (Read 694 times)

Mike Karseboom

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X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« on: August 11, 2022, 01:19:01 AM »

I would like a channel Strip's head amp gain setting to be recalled with a scene.  This already works as desired in some cases.


Suppose you mixed a band where input routing was set:


   Channel Strip 1-16               get inputs from  S16 (e.g. AES A 1-16)
   Channel Strip 17-32             get inputs from Local inputs 1-16 on the mixer itself


You get all the head amp gains set, all channel levels, channels eq's, monitor sends, etc. for a great mix.  You save this scene at the end of the show.


If you set up the X32 and S16 with the same routing and recall that scene a week later, all the channels come back with the same head amp gains (assuming you don't have any safes that block something).


   Channel strip 1                      HA gain was set to 31        it recalls as 31
   Channel strip 17 (AES A 1)     HA gain was set to 15        it recalls as 15


Great; everything is same as last week.  Wire up the instruments the same way as before and unmute and you are 90% on your way to a complete mix.


However, suppose this week you have reason to reverse the input routing blocks.  So now:


   channel Strip  1-16              get inputs from local inputs 1-16 on the mixer
   channel Strip  17-32            get inputs from the S16 inputs (e.g. AES A 1-16)


Now recall the scene, the head amp gains will NOT be the same as saved with the channel strips.


Instead it appears the head amp gain tracks with the physical inputs as saved.  That is, continuing with the previous example:


   Channel  Strip 1           is now coming from AES A 1         now recalls with a HA gain of 15  (not 31)


So Channel Strip 1 now has a HA gain that was previously set for Channel Strip 17.  What was desired was HA gain of 31 - the way it was saved with Channel Strip 1.


Is there a way to force the head amp setting to recall with a channel strip as saved regardless of where the physical input is routed from?
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--Mike
"If you're not confused, you don't know what is going on"

Live Sound for the Mt. Shasta area
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2022, 05:59:41 AM »

  The gains are stored in the Scene in relation to input routing. Both the AES50 and Local gains are set at the same time channel related. When you store a Scene if it is Local input channel 1 and the gain is +31 and you switch the input to AES50 1 and set that gain to +31 and store the scene when you recall that scene you can switch between local/AES50 and they both will say +31.
  The issue your having is your switching between inputs without setting both Local and AES50 to the same gain before storing the scene.

  Try this. Set 1-16 to Local in and set all gains to +10. Set inputs 1-16 to AES50 now and set all the gains to +10. Now store the scene. Recall the scene. You can switch between Local and AES50 now and both will say +10 when you switch between them.
 
  To do what you want you have to store both Local and AES50 gains set the same, +31 on channel 1, 2 to whatever its gain is on etc. as in your example, before storing the scene. As long as both gains, Local and AES50 input you plan on using gains are set the same before storing the scene what you want to do will work.

Douglas R. Allen
« Last Edit: August 11, 2022, 06:04:01 AM by Douglas R. Allen »
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Mike Karseboom

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2022, 10:32:30 AM »

Yes I agree with what Mr. Allen is saying.  However, this does not solve my particular dilemma.  I switch up mixer, digital snake, and channel count configurations frequently between shows.    For example I might have one event where an S16 is used as a drum / backline snake to get Ch 1-16.  And Ch 17-32 home run directly to the the mixer inputs.  Then I might have a multi-band event where I add a second S16 and get Ch 17-24 from that S16 but still home run Ch 25-32 to the mixer.   I would like to recall a band's previous scene and have all HA gains recalled as they were saved for the Channel Strip, independent of what the new input block routing scheme might look like.

All the other parameters such as channel name, gate, compression, eq, monitor send levels, etc.  track with the channel strip when the scene was stored and are then recalled "properly".  But the HA gain seems to be tied to the physical input location when the scene was stored.


Is there some setting somewhere that will cause the HA gain to track more closely with the channel strip like the other parameters do?  Or perhaps a different recall technique that would accomplish this?
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--Mike
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2022, 12:22:14 PM »

Yes I agree with what Mr. Allen is saying.  However, this does not solve my particular dilemma.  I switch up mixer, digital snake, and channel count configurations frequently between shows.    For example I might have one event where an S16 is used as a drum / backline snake to get Ch 1-16.  And Ch 17-32 home run directly to the the mixer inputs.  Then I might have a multi-band event where I add a second S16 and get Ch 17-24 from that S16 but still home run Ch 25-32 to the mixer.   I would like to recall a band's previous scene and have all HA gains recalled as they were saved for the Channel Strip, independent of what the new input block routing scheme might look like.

All the other parameters such as channel name, gate, compression, eq, monitor send levels, etc.  track with the channel strip when the scene was stored and are then recalled "properly".  But the HA gain seems to be tied to the physical input location when the scene was stored.


Is there some setting somewhere that will cause the HA gain to track more closely with the channel strip like the other parameters do?  Or perhaps a different recall technique that would accomplish this?

   The Desk has Head Amp Gain Control on the input source you have selected. If your using a Local input and turn the gain up or down on a channel it only effects the Local Gain settings. The AES50A and B are not adjusted. That is how it works and what you want to happen. You don't want Local and AES50A and B head amp gains to change together or act as 1. Remember you can do the gain changes for a different setup at any time. Even at home. Let's say your doing a band tonight side of stage with Local 1-16. You have your gains all set and store the scene as Band 1.  The next night your going to have the same band but in a different venue. You can do FOH in the back of the venue so your using a DL16 or S16. You recall the scene. Go to the Preamp Tab and write the preamp gains down used for channel 1-16. Change 1-16 to input AES50A and change the AES50A preamps to what the Local gains were set to. Store this scene as Band 1 SB (StageBox). Now your ready to go. Go to the venue and your right back to where you want to be. This is how I handle going between Local and Stage Boxes.
   I get fully what you want but the gains only adjust the input type, Local,AES50A/B etc. being used at the time. Not all 3 at the same time. This is how the board is setup. That is why your getting the issue your having. I know of no other way other than setting them yourself as above to do what your looking for. Maybe locking head amp but I think that too is input related and may add a layer of complexity you may not want. (I've never tried to be honest)
  Realistically gain recall only gets a person in the ballpark. Rarely is adjusting the gain not required as the source from stage, be it the singer, amp, keyboard etc. is exactly the same night for night.
  Maybe find a way to standardize your local/AES50/stagebox setup would be a better solution? At least now you know why your getting the issue you were having.

Douglas R. Allen

   
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2022, 12:59:09 PM »

No, Mike, it does not, and will not work that way.

Save scenes with each combination - 1-16 as Local, 17-32 as AES; 1-16 as AES, 17-32 as Local, etc.

Recall as needed.
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Mike Karseboom

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2022, 03:57:28 PM »

Great explanations, thanks.  I was looking for another free lunch but not to be.  It is not that big of a deal and your right that some HA tweaking is generally needed each time anyway. 


I think I have been confused by this for some time and just now coming to grips with the fact that it is not going to always recall the HA gains the way I was hoping.


It is the quick changeovers in a festival situation with repeat bands where a complete recall would be helpful.  I have done some of the same bands so many times at two or three different venues that I know I could get them up and running really quickly if the HA gains came back as saved.  One band in particular is a 13 piece funk band with horns, keys, BU singers, etc.  Re-adjusting HA gains on all those channels  takes time and they are never quite the same.  That of course affect the monitor sends to then they have to be tweaked aslo - all 6 of them. 


I think the suggestion to standardize my snake setup as much as possible is probably the best choice.


As a corollary the same "problem" occurs if you override the input routing on an individual channel strip.  Suppose a guitar player moves to the other side of the stage and rather than patching him into the S16 snake it is more convenient to home run his cab mic directly to the mixer.  When you override the input route for his existing channel strip, the HA gain will change to whatever the HA gain is on the new input route, rather than keeping it the way you had it on the original input route.


Strangely though, if  (using Mixingstation) you COPY a channel strip  ch1 to  channel strip ch17, it will also set the HA gain on ch17 to whatever ch1 was.  That is, it overrides whatever ch17 HA gain was set to in all cases regardless of whether the physical input is coming from local inputs or AES inputs.


Another thing that doesn't come back well with a scene recall are channel strip Links ( stereo Pair).  This is mostly problematic when a stereo Link is set and you don't want it.


And another thing that does not come back well with a scene recall is an EFX insert on a channel strip.  That insert tracks with the physical input route and not the channel strip.  For example suppose you had a leisure compressor inserted on Ch1 and saved the scene after the show.  At a different show you moved that compressor to be inserted on ch 17.  The next time you recall the scene, it won't have the compressor inserted on Ch1 as desired.  Instead it stays inserted on Ch17.


For my typical use cases it would be much better if the HA gain, channel linking, and EFX inserts all tracked with recalled channel strips.
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--Mike
"If you're not confused, you don't know what is going on"

Live Sound for the Mt. Shasta area
http://www.shastalivesound.com

Alec Spence

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2022, 07:29:03 PM »

Unfortunately, you're going to have to come to terms with the X32 operation being how it is, and it's not going to change just to accommodate your wants.

How it works makes sense, is consistent, and works for most people.  You need to learn how to work within the parameters.

There's nothing odd about Mixing Station's channel copy function - it simply takes the defined channel parameters (including headamp gain if you want) and copies them to the new channel.
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2022, 04:58:12 AM »

You could get a Pro series console, they store headlamp gain in the channel strip.
I have a Pro1 for when I need a compact console with big-boy features.
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Russell Ault

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2022, 04:02:45 PM »

You could get a Pro series console, they store headlamp gain in the channel strip.
I have a Pro1 for when I need a compact console with big-boy features.

How does that handle situations when you have the same preamp assigned to multiple channels? Which channel "wins"?

-Russ
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Mac Kerr

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2022, 07:15:15 PM »

How does that handle situations when you have the same preamp assigned to multiple channels? Which channel "wins"?

-Russ

 Not familiar with any tribe products, but afaik the preamp wins. A mic pre only has one gain setting no matter how many channels it drives. Individual channel strips have to use digital trim to get different levels from a single preamp.

Mac
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Russell Ault

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2022, 09:45:17 PM »

Not familiar with any tribe products, but afaik the preamp wins. A mic pre only has one gain setting no matter how many channels it drives. Individual channel strips have to use digital trim to get different levels from a single preamp.

Oh, absolutely! I've always ASSumed that this is a big part of the reason why the X/M32's preamp settings are stored separately from the channel settings. I'm just curious what happens on a Pro-series desk when you recall a snapshot while a single preamp is assigned to multiple channels (potentially with multiple different settings stored for that one preamp)?

-Russ
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Mac Kerr

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2022, 10:16:32 PM »

Oh, absolutely! I've always ASSumed that this is a big part of the reason why the X/M32's preamp settings are stored separately from the channel settings. I'm just curious what happens on a Pro-series desk when you recall a snapshot while a single preamp is assigned to multiple channels (potentially with multiple different settings stored for that one preamp)?

-Russ

How can there be multiple different setting for one preamp? A preamp only has one setting, gain. It can be assigned to multiple control channels that can have multiple different settings, but they will all have the same preamp gain. They can each have different digital trim settings
A Yamaha Rivage preamp can have a “Silk” setting, but like gain will be the same setting on any control channel it’s patched to.

Mac
« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 10:19:12 PM by Mac Kerr »
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2022, 02:19:48 AM »

How does that handle situations when you have the same preamp assigned to multiple channels? Which channel "wins"?

-Russ

IME the first channel «wins».

That’s one of the neat things with the Pro series, preamp gain is stored in the channel.
So, when you move between different setups with different racks, you can repatch your inputs and keep the gain. This summer I’ve moved show files between DL251/DL231/DL351, worked pretty good.
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Russell Ault

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2022, 01:39:44 PM »

How can there be multiple different setting for one preamp? A preamp only has one setting, gain. {...}

A simple example:
  • Store a scene with one-to-one input routing and different gain settings on each channel
  • Change the routing on the console so that every channel is using input 1
  • Recall-safe input routing (or remove input routing from the recall scope of the saved scene)
  • Recall the saved scene
Which channel's gain setting will apply to the now-shared preamp? (Apparently the first one on a Pro-series desk.)

(Incidentally, and not to be pedantic, but on a lot of consoles the preamp has at least two settings including phantom power, and many systems also include the HPF in the preamp as well...)

-Russ
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Mac Kerr

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2022, 05:07:20 PM »

A simple example:
  • Store a scene with one-to-one input routing and different gain settings on each channel
  • Change the routing on the console so that every channel is using input 1
  • Recall-safe input routing (or remove input routing from the recall scope of the saved scene)
  • Recall the saved scene
Which channel's gain setting will apply to the now-shared preamp? (Apparently the first one on a Pro-series desk.)

(Incidentally, and not to be pedantic, but on a lot of consoles the preamp has at least two settings including phantom power, and many systems also include the HPF in the preamp as well...)

-Russ

If you assign one preamp to all channels then you recall a scene, but let all channels still source from that preamp the pre level stays the same. It doesn’t matter that all the other channels were once attached to different preamps with different levels, they’re attached the one preamp now. It has one level. As you pointed out, it also has one 48v phantom supply, and perhaps one HP filter. All of those attributes follow that preamp till you change them.

Mac
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Russell Ault

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2022, 10:53:13 PM »

If you assign one preamp to all channels then you recall a scene, but let all channels still source from that preamp the pre level stays the same. It doesn’t matter that all the other channels were once attached to different preamps with different levels, they’re attached the one preamp now. It has one level. {...}

Sorry, just to be clear, I understand that an input can only have a single value for "gain" (or any other attribute). My question is what happens on scene recall when two (or more) channels have different stored preamp gain values but are sharing an input (i.e. since gain can only be one value, which one does the console choose?).

Let me put this another way: you tell the console to recall the stored scene described above. In that scene, let's say that the settings for channel 1 include "input gain = +12" and the settings for channel 2 include "input gain = +16". Both channels are sharing an input, and (as you say) that input can only have one value for gain, so will the console set gain on that shared input to +12 or +16?

Helge mentioned that on a Pro-series desk the console would set the gain on that input to be channel 1's +12 and ignore the value from channel 2, and I'm curious how other consoles that store preamp gain with the channel would handle such a conflict.

-Russ
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Mac Kerr

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2022, 08:36:56 AM »

Sorry, just to be clear, I understand that an input can only have a single value for "gain" (or any other attribute). My question is what happens on scene recall when two (or more) channels have different stored preamp gain values but are sharing an input (i.e. since gain can only be one value, which one does the console choose?).

Let me put this another way: you tell the console to recall the stored scene described above. In that scene, let's say that the settings for channel 1 include "input gain = +12" and the settings for channel 2 include "input gain = +16". Both channels are sharing an input, and (as you say) that input can only have one value for gain, so will the console set gain on that shared input to +12 or +16?

Helge mentioned that on a Pro-series desk the console would set the gain on that input to be channel 1's +12 and ignore the value from channel 2, and I'm curious how other consoles that store preamp gain with the channel would handle such a conflict.

-Russ

AFAIK there is no mic pre gain stored independent of the preamp itself. Someone with more complete knowledge of how the various parts of a scene are stored can maybe straighten this out, but my expectation is that HA gain is tied to the HA and those linked values are part of a scene, or Channel preset, but only in so much as they are part of that preamp setting. The scene wouldn’t have a different value in a different scene because it wouldn’t have the HA that value refers to.

Someone with more direct knowledge of how this all gets stored feel free to straighten me out.

Mac
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Russell Ault

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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2022, 03:20:31 PM »

AFAIK there is no mic pre gain stored independent of the preamp itself. Someone with more complete knowledge of how the various parts of a scene are stored can maybe straighten this out, but my expectation is that HA gain is tied to the HA and those linked values are part of a scene, or Channel preset, but only in so much as they are part of that preamp setting. The scene wouldn’t have a different value in a different scene because it wouldn’t have the HA that value refers to.
{...}

Right, which also makes sense, but if that's the case, what difference does it make if the preamp settings are stored per-channel or per-input? If the preamp's settings can't be recalled separately from the preamp routing, doesn't "channel 1 uses input 1 with gain at +12 dB" do exactly the same thing as "input 1 has a gain of +12, and channel 1 uses input 1"?

What you're describing also doesn't achieve the OP's goal of being able to set up the console's routing de jour, recall a scene de hier, and have yesterday's preamp settings apply to today's preamps (which, as Helge mentions, apparently Pro-series consoles will do happily).

-Russ
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Re: X32: Confusion with Head Amp Recall
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2022, 03:20:31 PM »


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