Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Tim McCulloch]

This is certainly true for a ~150 person capacity live music venue that I work at.  It opened last October and to date, every act that has come through with their own FOH has either used our Cat5e cable or mixed on glass.  Nobody has wanted to run their own cables from the stage.  Also, X/M32 are the consoles of choice.  We have an X32 and Behringer stage box, but the touring acts tend to favor Midas gear.  Based on the near ubiquity of the X/M32 platform at the small concert level, and the relatively cheap price of STP Cat5e of ~$1/Ft, I would recommend putting at least one extra run in your venue if you are going to be hosting these types of acts.  Bands that are traveling around the country in a van, maybe pulling a trailer.

My recent experience tends to mirror yours, John.

Of our various clients, the 2000 cap ballroom has gotten most of the "do you have a CAT5 or two already run?" questions.  They carry their own, they just don't want to have it deployed for... well, who knows?  Sometimes it's "all about the out" and they need to shave the 10 minutes off; sometimes the tour CAT5 is getting flaky, and sometimes... it's hard to say.

The venue has 2 runs from FOH, one to each side of the stage.  We didn't install it and I tell the BE that I cannot vouch for the integrity of the run and that the Ethercons were removed by LX folks.  Most of the time they will have the hands run the tour CAT5.

While my "in the bus" days are largely over, I'd NEVER put my job on the line in order to save a few minutes by using installed cables.  If the tour snake has issues, it's rented and we'll have the TM arrange for a replacement from the vendor.  We may hire locally, but to depend on the house was a disappointment back in my day...

EDIT PS:  Brian Jojade has the correct answer - a trough or some other dedicated safe place to run tour cables.  The primary issue with them is the accumulation of spilled beverages, dirt and dust, confetti and glitter, and sludge from floor cleaning equipment. 

[Don T. Williams]

As inexpensive as CAT5 cable is, run several extra runs - some shielded and grounded and some unshielded.  That combination will meet almost any standard.  Plus, with a CAT to 4 XLR or 1/4"TRS accessory (the Radial Catapult is one), you have spare lines for analog audio, digital signals and DMX or networked lighting.

[Brian Jojade]

This is certainly true for a ~150 person capacity live music venue that I work at.  It opened last October and to date, every act that has come through with their own FOH has either used our Cat5e cable or mixed on glass.  Nobody has wanted to run their own cables from the stage. 

Curious if you have an easy path to drop cables should the show need it, or if they would be just on the ground.  Obviously, with a 150 person venue, chances are you're dealing with much smaller acts than a 1000+ seat venue, and along with that smaller budgets and smaller crews for deployment, and also as such, somewhat smaller risk if they have to deal with problems that could crop up in a show.

My experience in smaller venues has been that cable troughs are NOT thought of, so running cable to FOH means weird cable paths, going over doorways, through hallways, etc.  Yeah, if there's a permanent snake there, then sure I'll try that first, but often times these smaller venues also have poor maintenance on installed gear, so I'm very careful to inspect the connections for signs of abuse before committing to the decision.

Some smaller shows certainly would be willing to mix on glass instead of pulling a cable or using a house run. It's neat that it's an option, but honestly, I'd only pick that option for the absolute smallest shows. Mixing on glass exclusively means trusting WIFI, and there's no way I can do that for a show.

Off topic, but I REALLY wish the X32/M32 line would offer a slave console mode where instead of all of the audio heading to FOH, you leave the mixer on stage and use good old ethernet to remotely control the console.  I do this all the time using the Behringer X-touch.  It's awesome when you need a small control surface that's hard wired. If you lose connection to the X-touch, audio keeps flowing, giving you a chance to control elsewhere.  The only problem is the control layout makes it difficult to access features other than basic level controls (although you can actually do a heck of a lot with it if you really needed to!)  I generally pair the X-Touch with an iPad.  The main level controls are then hard wired, and the 'optional' settings are accessed through the iPad.  If WIFI went down, I can still adjust levels which is the critical part.

 If they could offer the same functionality in the full sized console, I'd be one happy camper for sure!

[John L Nobile]

A few years ago I did 2 runs of Cat6 STP for X32 runs and 2 of Cat6 UTP for networks.

[John Schalk]

Curious if you have an easy path to drop cables should the show need it, or if they would be just on the ground.  Obviously, with a 150 person venue, chances are you're dealing with much smaller acts than a 1000+ seat venue, and along with that smaller budgets and smaller crews for deployment, and also as such, somewhat smaller risk if they have to deal with problems that could crop up in a show.

There is a fairly safe wall/floor boundary that the show could use to run their own snake cable(s) from the FOH position to the stage and the total distance is around 75'.  I suspect that Tim is correct in that it's mostly "about the out."  Also, our gear is new so our Cat5e cable is probably in way better shape than a small tour's snake.  After all, our cable was run once and nobody has ever stepped on it or spilled a drink on it.  I wish we had a second Cat5e STP cable run from FOH to the rack upstage left.

[Caleb Dueck]

The venue has 2 runs from FOH, one to each side of the stage.  We didn't install it and I tell the BE that I cannot vouch for the integrity of the run and that the Ethercons were removed by LX folks.  Most of the time they will have the hands run the tour CAT5.

From a production-turned-install-designer perspective, there's a big difference between a couple cables laying in a trough or conduit or whatever path - versus cables in conduit, properly terminated to tech plates/patch panels, and certified like the IT world does.  This removes the uncertainty  and potential for cable failure for the main cable, and puts potential failure on the patch cables between either end and the device. 

If I were advancing a show and was told, "There's a few cables, they might work" - that's much different than, "We have X number of XYZ-spec cable properly terminated and certified, and a supply of unopened patch cables of all flavors (Cat5e, 6A, UTP, F/UTP, STP, etc)."  Extra credit if there is a way to do a certification of some level higher than simple continuity upon request. 

The other thing I'd look at is fiber optics, with a mix of MM and SM, with common connections, with the same mindset as IT (albeit with Neutrik connectors for some).  This makes the most sense if you're hosting higher tier productions than just a simple X/M32 (comms, LX, SDI, etc). 

I'd also add a couple SDI runs for video, and basic Cat6 UTP for data, sACN, etc.

[Tim McCulloch]

From a production-turned-install-designer perspective, there's a big difference between a couple cables laying in a trough or conduit or whatever path - versus cables in conduit, properly terminated to tech plates/patch panels, and certified like the IT world does.  This removes the uncertainty  and potential for cable failure for the main cable, and puts potential failure on the patch cables between either end and the device. 

If I were advancing a show and was told, "There's a few cables, they might work" - that's much different than, "We have X number of XYZ-spec cable properly terminated and certified, and a supply of unopened patch cables of all flavors (Cat5e, 6A, UTP, F/UTP, STP, etc)."  Extra credit if there is a way to do a certification of some level higher than simple continuity upon request. 

The other thing I'd look at is fiber optics, with a mix of MM and SM, with common connections, with the same mindset as IT (albeit with Neutrik connectors for some).  This makes the most sense if you're hosting higher tier productions than just a simple X/M32 (comms, LX, SDI, etc). 

I'd also add a couple SDI runs for video, and basic Cat6 UTP for data, sACN, etc.

Yes.  There's a world of difference between running some cable and actually doing an engineered installation.  Even then, I'd be leery of venue infrastructure as I've been burned too many times over the decades.  That's why I say to BEs exactly what I wrote above.

Funny, but in most places it's easier to get money for IT than production.  Calling the CAT5e STP dry lines "IT infrastructure" might be the way for things to become 'installed' instead of 'provided.'

[Scott Helmke]

The nice thing about Cat5 is that you're going to find out pretty quickly if it's good or bad.  Not like getting 3/4 of the way through your line check before finding a bunch of bad lines on an installed snake.  Or the band stops rehearsing and you can finally hear that little buzz in the installed lines.

[dave briar]

The nice thing about Cat5 is that you're going to find out pretty quickly if it's good or bad.

So, at the risk of a slight swerve, a related question: Specifically what failure modes have folks experienced with regard to a bad Cat cable?  Drop outs? Crackles? Poor audio quality? Dead input/outputs on the stage box? Or, as I suspect, the answer is probably yes.

Background: We have an outdoor stage at my venue where we’ve traditionally moved the console to a weatherproof drawer stageside for the season. From there we connect to the stagebox via a plain-old 10’ Cat5 UTP and then mix via tablet. Given there’s really no reason the console needs to be outside and exposed to the elements we decided to install a Cat5 STP from the outdoor stage to the FOH booth inside and then just leave the console safely inside all summer. It’s about 165’ (complex) cable run between the outside stage and inside FOH.  The problem is the IT folks mistakenly installed Cat5e UTP rather than STP — sigh. So I tried it anyway and actually did two complete gigs without any discernible issue.  No drop outs, crackles, distorted sound, etc.  Then on the third gig multiple outputs including (L&R)on the stage box were totally dead/inert at boot up.  Reconnecting and rebooting everything (twice) made no difference. So I moved the console back outside into its drawer and ten minutes later everything once again worked fine.  Ok, 165’ of unshielded cable running through walls and near power, lights, compressors just wasn’t going to work — at least for a layer-two protocol like A&H Slink. Yes, glad it was obvious from the start and not problem that developed during the show.  Note, we’ve since pulled two high-quality Ethercon terminated Cat5e STP cables and everything has worked perfectly (so far?).

So has anyone run into other/different Cat cable failures?  Any that appeared during a show? Just curious.

[Helge A Bentsen]

So, at the risk of a slight swerve, a related question: Specifically what failure modes have folks experienced with regard to a bad Cat cable?  Drop outs? Crackles? Poor audio quality? Dead input/outputs on the stage box? Or, as I suspect, the answer is probably yes.

Background: We have an outdoor stage at my venue where we’ve traditionally moved the console to a weatherproof drawer stageside for the season. From there we connect to the stagebox via a plain-old 10’ Cat5 UTP and then mix via tablet. Given there’s really no reason the console needs to be outside and exposed to the elements we decided to install a Cat5 STP from the outdoor stage to the FOH booth inside and then just leave the console safely inside all summer. It’s about 165’ (complex) cable run between the outside stage and inside FOH.  The problem is the IT folks mistakenly installed Cat5e UTP rather than STP — sigh. So I tried it anyway and actually did two complete gigs without any discernible issue.  No drop outs, crackles, distorted sound, etc.  Then on the third gig multiple outputs including (L&R)on the stage box were totally dead/inert at boot up.  Reconnecting and rebooting everything (twice) made no difference. So I moved the console back outside into its drawer and ten minutes later everything once again worked fine.  Ok, 165’ of unshielded cable running through walls and near power, lights, compressors just wasn’t going to work — at least for a layer-two protocol like A&H Slink. Yes, glad it was obvious from the start and not problem that developed during the show.  Note, we’ve since pulled two high-quality Ethercon terminated Cat5e STP cables and everything has worked perfectly (so far?).

So has anyone run into other/different Cat cable failures?  Any that appeared during a show? Just curious.

IME if a cat-cable is "bad", it's dead or intermittent. Either you can't connect to the stage box or you have sync dropouts that leads to dropouts in control or audio or both. Sometimes these will reset for a while if you power sync/replug the cable, other times not.
The only time I've lost parts of a stage box is when I lost one cable of two for a Pro series stage box. Someone (not me) insisted on not running the third cat-cable.

Personally, I gave up on the whole "cat-issue" during the pandemic and built myself a couple of looms with the recommended cat+power for my larger consoles. They have one spare cable and sometimes a extra cat for control that can double up as the spares spare. Reason for this is that I dislike multiple cable drums going from stage to FOH, much faster and easier to strike one loom than 3-4 cables on a drum. The M32R is still run on a single cable since it doesn't have redundant cat-option, but I always carry a spare cable in the stage rack.
I'm about to build a new one for a tour later this year, it will have 4 cat cables + 2 AES/EBU lines + power for a small club tour on a Pro2.

[ProSoundWeb Community]