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[John Woodfield]

I need something that won't break the bank and has a reasonable long throw to add to my collection.

I **might** pull it out once a year and I know with that statement many will say I should just rent but I prefer to own.

Is the KF850 still considered rider friendly? They aren't terribly expensive on the second hand market.

Also looking at the KF650 as a middle ground.

I know these things are terribly heavy, but they are cheap and I can break my back to use them once or twice a year...

[Tim McCulloch]

I need something that won't break the bank and has a reasonable long throw to add to my collection.

I **might** pull it out once a year and I know with that statement many will say I should just rent but I prefer to own.

Is the KF850 still considered rider friendly? They aren't terribly expensive on the second hand market.

Also looking at the KF650 as a middle ground.

I know these things are terribly heavy, but they are cheap and I can break my back to use them once or twice a year...

I haven't seen "NO KF850" on a rider yet, but it's also not usually in the acceptable systems list, either.

Depends on who is hiring you and how much they care what the BE's think.  The secret to KF acceptance is the gray/black box processing EAW developed over a dozen years ago.  I think they're still selling the processor...

They're really meant to use in blocks of at least 4 boxes.  The suggested processing (both new and legacy) presume LF coupling and without multiple boxes, there's nothing to couple with.

We've got a dozen, IIRC, and we use them like you propose - a couple long term clients with a particular need that takes line arrays and less capable speakers out of consideration.

[John Woodfield]

I haven't seen "NO KF850" on a rider yet, but it's also not usually in the acceptable systems list, either.

Any thoughts on the KF650's?

[scottstephens]

John,

   This might not be of any help and might just be lack of sleep thinking.....

I don't know how much 850's or 650's go for these days and Tim is spot on with the grey box advice, but surely you can get some RCF TT series or Fulcrum type of stuff that are decades newer, less weight and have the ability to use them several times a  year on several different shows so they can not only pay for themselves but also put some coin in your pocket.  Just wondering what kind of shows you are doing because most b or c act BE's these days playing for a local county fair or something are just happy to have something that works and sounds decent.

Scott

[Art Welter]

Any thoughts on the KF650's?

At 60x45 degrees, the KF650 is hardly "long throw".
The KF850 is 55x40, weighs 250lb, the KF750 is 35x35 degrees, has 3dB more HF output, more extended low frequency, and weighs 190 pounds.

The KF750 is simply better in terms of design, output, and weight than the other two EAW options mentioned.

[Helge A Bentsen]

KF650 is a nice box for such a old design, especially the KF650z. But it's a "short" trow box, not much output beyond 30m.
KF850 is still useable, especially if you can get your hands on the "z" version, but they are super rare.
However, both share the same main problem, spares. A lot of the drivers in them are discontinued.

KF750z OTOH. Plenty of spares available, more modern sound quality, lot's of output and easy to stack/fly. I can fly a KF750 array alone, but you need 3/4 persons to stack it.

Of course, this is all depending on the correct processing. UX DSPs or UX amplifiers from EAW, Powersoft amplifiers or Lab PLM amplifiers is needed.
I run my little KF750 rig (8 boxes) with Powersoft X8 using the internal DSP most of the time. I got a couple of UX8800 available if I need to rent more amps(shading or split system), then I run everything off them. Haven't made my mind up if there is any sound quality differences between those two processing platforms yet.

[John Woodfield]

John,

   This might not be of any help and might just be lack of sleep thinking.....

I don't know how much 850's or 650's go for these days and Tim is spot on with the grey box advice, but surely you can get some RCF TT series or Fulcrum type of stuff

Scott,

I appreciate the input. I come from long ago in a land far away where the "high end" gear I was mostly exposed to were things like EV SX100's and if I really had a good gig we'd upgrade to the SX300's. Meyer, EAW, these were the things of dreams. So, I am always open to suggestions.

About a year ago I was replacing some eon's for a church and I was sold on a couple active RCF's. I wasn't happy with the throw of them at all. I felt the presense was lost at about 30'. Now, my understanding is the TT series is a completely different animal BUT I don't see much availability on the second-hand market.

I have halve a dozen EAW JF260Z's which I think are a great box for smaller groups/venues.

I need something that is going to really throw. I had a pair of community long throw speakers back in the day but I am otherwise unfamiliar with what is out there, even more so with the equipment of today.

[John Woodfield]

At 60x45 degrees, the KF650 is hardly "long throw".
The KF850 is 55x40, weighs 250lb, the KF750 is 35x35 degrees, has 3dB more HF output, more extended low frequency, and weighs 190 pounds.

The KF750 is simply better in terms of design, output, and weight than the other two EAW options mentioned.

Love the spec's on the KF750. Now if I could just find them...

[Steve Eudaly]

Back in 2014-2016, a 1000-cap theatre I worked as the house PM for here in the midwest often rented a local VT4888 rig for their shows. Lots of B and C level classic rock, alt rock, country, the occasional hip-hop show, etc. However, when that provider was unavailable, the only other local option was a KF850 rig. The other option was to pull in from the nearest city, 3 hours away, greatly increasing production costs.

We had a three/side configuration of the KF850s that worked pretty well and we had several successful shows with it, but the advance process when we had to use that rig was difficult. Even 6-8 years ago, people were already less than pleased when they found out that was their option, largely due to poor experiences with less-than-professional providers. One artist's management even made me promise we would have two extra boxes on-site just in case they had any issues. I think there may have been one show where they straight up refused to use the 850s and we trucked in another 4888 rig from out of town.

Of course, a lot of the folks I was advancing with were also pretty unhappy to hear they were going to get 88s, but that's another story, and like the 850s I believe the negative reputation was largely a result of bad experiences with amateur providers.

If you're really going to need this rig to meet riders, I think it could be a hard sell sometimes, depending on what level you're operating at/providing for, which we don't have a very clear picture of.

The cost of transport, setup, storage is not great on a box that big/heavy, especially considering what you're getting out of them for their size. I will say, with proper processing the KF850 can sound very good, but even if it can be purchased for cheap, you're going to constantly be paying for extra labor to move them around, which makes them a pretty expensive solution over time.

If I were looking for a big, heavy, loud box on the used market that *might* be rider friendly I'd probably have my eyes on MSL-4s before KF850s, especially If I didn't already have amps and processing on hand.

[Doug Fowler]

Love the spec's on the KF750. Now if I could just find them...

Forget falling in love with specs.  That’s a seriously bad approach. What specs do you love?  Frequency response?

You can use it to determine “wider” vs “narrower”.

Soundbroker.com has some 750s right now.

[ProSoundWeb Community]