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Sub bass to keep up with live drums, in a bar, with bass cabs.
Herbert Mcinnes:
So I want to start out and say that I know this is a topic that A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HATE. I have had to really bounce around the web to try and get an answer to this, but I'm hoping to get some help here.
I am working on what amounts to an avant garde music project and I gotta start from the ground up. I've learned the hard way that almost no bars have sound systems that can support copious sub bass, and certainly not in a way that is loud enough to overcome live drums and a guitar "stack." Now I know this is "too loud" for a lot of people here. I get it. I also understand what is being proposed here is not "clean." A lot of this stuff is going to sound gritty because the crossovers are not ideal. Part of that is handled internally because I can actually highpass\lowpass the individual tracks, print them, and then play them through their correct channels when live. Preprocessed.
But either way, my options essentually come down to a handful of bars that already have pretty stout PAs (these are venues like St. Vites), and rolling in my own gear. I would absolutely love to do option 1, but first of all, not many of these places exist. And second of all, they require a bigger following before they'll let you play, fair enough. So I'm going to have to roll gear.
I'm planning for two show sizes. There is a local warehouse that hosts weird acts like this, but the space is larger than I'd like. It's 13,000sqft. There's a much larger number of bars around 2,500sqft. But to be completely honest, I think I have to start backwards in the bigger location. I can't get any info from the larger location on capacity and crowd sizing, I think because of some state laws involving "venue" vs "bar." Or something like that. They are adament they are a winery. Anyways, the point being that I think the place won't have a lot of people in it, so the noise floor would be low. So my hope is that gear that will make a 2,500-4000sqft location with high noise floor bass heaven, will still get the job done in an emptyish warehouse 5 times the size.
After enough digging I found this.
--- Quote ---Marc “Reactivity” Dallas, the San Diego ambassador for L.A. promoters Pure Filth, held the first Bassface night at Brick by Brick in July. Approximately 300 people (400 cap venue) came out to experience Pure Filth’s massive dubstep-ready sound system, which comprises eight 2x18 McCauley subwoofers and two 2x15 top speakers. Dallas calls it the minimum for a venue like Brick by Brick —a DJ of any other genre would call it overkill.
--- End quote ---
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I can not find info on the size of this location.
I'm basically trying to convert this setup into tube\bass cabinet power specs. I do still need 2 actual full range speakers, which I think in your language they call the "tops?"
How much more powerful is tube power as a rule of thumb? I have at my disposal a number of high powered tube amps of varying power and distortion is acceptable and preferred for this installation. I am not talking about "guitar amps." These are amps like a Mesa Boogie Strategy 400, or Rivera Hammer 320 (very popular in home theatre use). So 2x200 tube watts and 2x160 tube watts. My experiance in using a 1000w solid state amp into a guitar cabinet is that solid state power is nowhere near as powerful as tube power when accounting for headroom. But to what degree this is on a rule of thumb, I am not sure. I've seen three times as perceptually powerful floated.
I can't imagine I need literally 16 1x15 bass cabinets to get that level of sub bass.. I have to imagine by the time you're at even 4 at a 400 capacity venue, indoors, with both tube stereo power amps (so 2x200 and 2x160) you've got to be saturating anything less than a warehouse. What am I missing out on converting between these formats?
Brian Jojade:
No.
Tim Weaver:
I'll take "This'll never work" for $1000, Alex.
Tube watts aren't any different than solis state. Or a toaster oven for that matter. A "Watt" is a unit of measurement that something has produced. The reason tube guitar amps "sound" louder is because the distortion fools our ears into thinking thay are louder than they really are. This is also why saturation plug ins work. Make it distorted and it sou nds louder. This is psycho-acoustics. Not physics. It all happens in your head.
To make serious bass you need to move a ton of air. The only way to do that is to either have a whole bunch of speakers, or speakers that do more work individually. And give those speakers enough power to get the job done.
Why tube amps? The "benefit" of tube amps is completely lost when you are talking low frequency stuff. You'll be trying to dig a grave with a spoon by using tube amps for this setup.
Paul G. OBrien:
--- Quote from: Herbert Mcinnes on June 02, 2022, 03:24:23 AM ---
My experiance in using a 1000w solid state amp into a guitar cabinet is that solid state power is nowhere near as powerful as tube power when accounting for headroom.
--- End quote ---
Was that a Crown Macrotech or a Behringer iNuke? Solid state amps don't work the same way as tubes but there is also a vast difference in performance between a DJ grade and a touring grade solid state amp.
--- Quote from: Herbert Mcinnes on June 02, 2022, 03:24:23 AM --- I can't imagine I need literally 16 1x15 bass cabinets to get that level of sub bass.[/b]. I have to imagine by the time you're at even 4 at a 400 capacity venue, indoors, with both tube stereo power amps (so 2x200 and 2x160) you've got to be saturating anything less than a warehouse. What am I missing out on converting between these formats?
--- End quote ---
That DJ system you quoted with 8 double 18 subs probably had 30kw of amplifiers behind it, it doesn't matter how you compare tubes to transsistors if you want to copy or emulate this quantity of subbass you will need that kind of power.
Matthias McCready:
--- Quote from: Herbert Mcinnes on June 02, 2022, 03:24:23 AM ---
I am working on what amounts to an avant garde music project and I gotta start from the ground up. I've learned the hard way that almost no bars have sound systems that can support copious sub bass, and certainly not in a way that is loud enough to overcome live drums and a guitar "stack." Now I know this is "too loud" for a lot of people here. I get it. I also understand what is being proposed here is not "clean." A lot of this stuff is going to sound gritty because the crossovers are not ideal. Part of that is handled internally because I can actually highpass\lowpass the individual tracks, print them, and then play them through their correct channels when live. Preprocessed.
--- End quote ---
Crossover: A poorly done crossover doesn't mean it will sound "gritty" instead it means that your timing and/or amplitude between devices is not matching in the hand-off region; ie there might be a large "hole in the sound," at that area, because your system is canceling.
No amount of channel/source processing will fix whether or not your system acts as a system, that isn't how this works...
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To the point no matter how "advante garde" the music, your system should not be "advante garde." The goal of a good system is to be linear; ie what you put in is what you get out. That means the artistic vision on the front end, carries through to your audience, for a consistent experience around the venue.
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You are correct, few small venues have adequate systems; so if you want something better that probably means you either need to find a better venue or to bring the rig
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Fortunately for you don't have to invent or even reinvent the wheel.
At my main venue I mix at I have an L'Acoustics Rig with 8x KS28's. I have never driven it anywhere close to what it could do, and I have no desire to.
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If low end and volume is what you are after, there are many systems and manufacturers that can do what you desire, however you will want to consider:
1) What area are you trying to cover?
2) What SPL are trying to achieve?
3) What frequency extension do you need?
Once you know those things you can determine what you need to fit your needs.
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As you are uncertain about venue specifics, and system deployment and tuning, it would probably be best to rent or hire in a sound-company to provide; if that seems like it costs a lot of money, I would posit that you have probably not considered all the costs associated with ownership of equipment (storage, transport, repair, insurance etc).
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