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Author Topic: Excess sound being picked up  (Read 998 times)

Ryan Reicker

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Excess sound being picked up
« on: May 29, 2022, 05:32:50 PM »

Currently have 4 wireless mics and we have two micís picking up excess sound and I am puzzled as to what could be causing this. If I cue them up on the TF3 you hear the monitors plus their voice but the surrounding noise is tinny, the other 2 wireless mics donít pic this up. The two offending channels donít peak or clip.

I am not a pro by any means so
Keep it simple stupid.!.

Thanks
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 05:44:58 PM by Ryan Reicker »
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Excess sound being picked up
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2022, 08:44:04 PM »

Currently have 4 wireless mics and we have two micís picking up excess sound and I am puzzled as to what could be causing this. If I cue them up on the TF3 you hear the monitors plus their voice but the surrounding noise is tinny, the other 2 wireless mics donít pic this up. The two offending channels donít peak or clip.

I am not a pro by any means so
Keep it simple stupid.!.

Thanks

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing the two offending channels have more gain than the other two. That could be on the TF3 somewhere (headamp, compressor, digital trim, etc) or it could be in the mic itself, or the reciever. All of these spots have some kind of gain controls to fiddle with.

What you are hearing sounds like "bleed" or basically it's every thing on stage that you don't want, coming into the mic. If the microphone gain is higher than it needs to be, you'll pick up every noise around you. Sometimes this happens with a low-volume singer, or an inexperienced singer/speaker that doesn't want the mic any where near their sound-hole.

There is one hard ans fast rule in sound reinforcement. The loudest sound at the mic wins.
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Ryan Reicker

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Re: Excess sound being picked up
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2022, 08:46:19 AM »

Hey Tim,

Thanks for the response, I was actually live in the service (not running the mixer but helping a new soundman)and posted that from my cell phone. I took some time after the service to check a few things so I have some more information.

Channel 1: Gain= +26, Shure PG58, Attenuated, standing directly in front of a monitor about 6 feet back. This also had the compressor on at 37%, can't remember exactly but i want to say it was between 2:1 and a 3:1 ratio and out gain was +4.6. We turned this off part way though the service when we noticed it was on, there was 0 change.

Channel 2: Gain= +29, Shure SM58, Default, NOT standing directly in front of a monitor about 6 feet back.

Channel 3: Gain= +28, Shure SM58, Default, NOT standing directly in front of a monitor about 6 feet back.

Channel 4: Gain= +2, Shure SM58, Default, standing directly in front of a monitor about 6 feet back.

So channel 1 and channel 2 where the culprits of having the "bleed" effect. If I compared these to channels 3 and 4 it was night and day.

The receivers don't have any additional gain settings on them that I can find either. Channels 1 and 2 were not peaking and were sitting perfect on the gain meter.
 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 08:50:42 AM by Ryan Reicker »
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Excess sound being picked up
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2022, 12:19:49 PM »

Hey Tim,

Thanks for the response, I was actually live in the service (not running the mixer but helping a new soundman)and posted that from my cell phone. I took some time after the service to check a few things so I have some more information.

Channel 1: Gain= +26, Shure PG58, Attenuated, standing directly in front of a monitor about 6 feet back. This also had the compressor on at 37%, can't remember exactly but i want to say it was between 2:1 and a 3:1 ratio and out gain was +4.6. We turned this off part way though the service when we noticed it was on, there was 0 change.

Channel 2: Gain= +29, Shure SM58, Default, NOT standing directly in front of a monitor about 6 feet back.

Channel 3: Gain= +28, Shure SM58, Default, NOT standing directly in front of a monitor about 6 feet back.

Channel 4: Gain= +2, Shure SM58, Default, standing directly in front of a monitor about 6 feet back.

So channel 1 and channel 2 where the culprits of having the "bleed" effect. If I compared these to channels 3 and 4 it was night and day.

The receivers don't have any additional gain settings on them that I can find either. Channels 1 and 2 were not peaking and were sitting perfect on the gain meter.

Depending on the wireless systems there are more places than just the mixer that will affect the gain. There is at the transmitter and the receiver and the receiver may have a switch or different connector for a mic level or line level output.

One thing I would suggest that you try is with the receivers and the transmitters only turn one system on at a time and see if it sounds the same way or not. You must have only one transmitter on and one receiver on for this test to be valid. You are testing to see if there is any RF interaction with the wireless mic systems. With the fact that mic 4 is only +2 compared to the others around +28 there is definitely different levels coming from the wireless systems. Unless the +2 is a typo.       
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Excess sound being picked up
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2022, 12:46:22 PM »

Might be a good chance to hire a pro to come in on a rehearsal day to check things over, give you some instruction and leave things at a good starting point for Sunday. It is money very well spent.

Post your location and let's see if anybody here is in your area?
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John L Nobile

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Re: Excess sound being picked up
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2022, 12:59:49 PM »

With the fact that mic 4 is only +2 compared to the others around +28 there is definitely different levels coming from the wireless systems. Unless the +2 is a typo.     

That would make me suspect that the output for that mic is set to line while the others are at mic level. Check the back of the receiver.
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Dave Pluke

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Re: Excess sound being picked up
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2022, 02:02:19 PM »


So channel 1 and channel 2 where the culprits of having the "bleed" effect. If I compared these to channels 3 and 4 it was night and day.


Just for giggles, try swapping the mic heads from one that's behaving to one that's bleeding. If that changes the situation, it may be time to order new (genuine) Shure capsules. Also, moving to a super cardioid capsule may help with bleed, but the user's technique may need to be altered.

I have had good luck with sE Electronics' V7 MC1 capsule on Shure transmitters. YMMV.

Dave
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John L Nobile

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Re: Excess sound being picked up
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2022, 02:12:58 PM »

If I cue them up on the TF3 you hear the monitors plus their voice but the surrounding noise is tinny,



Is it the same with only one mic on or is the "tinny" sound gone? Check the polarity on the mics.
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Paul Johnson

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Re: Excess sound being picked up
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2022, 03:16:30 PM »

We are making this far more complicated than it is. The gain is to a large degree, irrelevant in any way other than turning up the channel gain to a usable level. The key feature is simply wanted to unwanted capture. Next time you have the chance, put on some decent enclosed headphones - DT100 types or similar, and listen to the channel. If the wanted sound is not loud enough, you reach for the gain and add some, to bring the singer or whoever up to the right level on the meters. The background sound comes up too - and that is your spill. The ONLY way to fix it is to get the mic closer to the wanted sound and further from the spill. Floor wedges have been a problem ever since they were invented. Cardioid microphones have a null at the rear, where they are least responsive - so any on stage noise needs to be in that null. If there is a guitar amp or similar that is firing into the face of the mic, then it will get captured. To fix it, the noise has to go. There is no simple turn a knob solution. A singer without power needs to have their lips on the mic if it's a noisy stage. Forget the compression and other ideas - if the mic captures a sound, it does not care if it is the singing or a noisy guitar or drum. Sure, you could wipe out the bass savagely if the singer is high and the bass is low - but you will also be impacting the singers voice.

If the mic is a hyper cardioid, then the floor monitor best position is NOT directly in front of them, but away to one side just a bit, because hypers have different nulls.

If the spill is coming from a certain direction, then find it, and fix it. If you have two singers, one string and one weak, put the string one in the noisiest place.

Just remember that the ratio between wanted and unwanted remains exactly the same when you add gain - the levels go up, but the BOTH go up the same amount - gain does not fix it. get wanted sources closer, move unwanted ones away.
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brian maddox

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Re: Excess sound being picked up
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2022, 08:55:00 PM »

We are making this far more complicated than it is. The gain is to a large degree, irrelevant in any way other than turning up the channel gain to a usable level. The key feature is simply wanted to unwanted capture. Next time you have the chance, put on some decent enclosed headphones - DT100 types or similar, and listen to the channel. If the wanted sound is not loud enough, you reach for the gain and add some, to bring the singer or whoever up to the right level on the meters. The background sound comes up too - and that is your spill. The ONLY way to fix it is to get the mic closer to the wanted sound and further from the spill. Floor wedges have been a problem ever since they were invented. Cardioid microphones have a null at the rear, where they are least responsive - so any on stage noise needs to be in that null. If there is a guitar amp or similar that is firing into the face of the mic, then it will get captured. To fix it, the noise has to go. There is no simple turn a knob solution. A singer without power needs to have their lips on the mic if it's a noisy stage. Forget the compression and other ideas - if the mic captures a sound, it does not care if it is the singing or a noisy guitar or drum. Sure, you could wipe out the bass savagely if the singer is high and the bass is low - but you will also be impacting the singers voice.

If the mic is a hyper cardioid, then the floor monitor best position is NOT directly in front of them, but away to one side just a bit, because hypers have different nulls.

If the spill is coming from a certain direction, then find it, and fix it. If you have two singers, one string and one weak, put the string one in the noisiest place.

Just remember that the ratio between wanted and unwanted remains exactly the same when you add gain - the levels go up, but the BOTH go up the same amount - gain does not fix it. get wanted sources closer, move unwanted ones away.

^^this
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Re: Excess sound being picked up
¬ę Reply #9 on: June 01, 2022, 08:55:00 PM ¬Ľ


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