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[Herman Wolf]

Hey, fam.
Part-time listener, first-time caller.

I've been taking audio gigs at a local synagogue for the past year.
Last week they asked if I could help them put together a small PA / streaming solution for their chapel.
They paid through the nose for a ridiculously OP system (Digico/QSC/Bose) in the main sanctuary and have no intention of repeating that experience so they called me instead of their AV contractor.

I'm here to ask for help with gear selection.

The chapel is oblong in shape, ~50'L x ~25'W x ~20'H. Speakers will be mounted on the walls flanking the podium. Photos forthcoming.

They already have dedicated streaming hardware (Podium Mic > Panasonic UX series 4K camera > USB HDMI capture > ThinkPad (Intel Graphics)).

They want to add a small PA.
I'm envisioning something like this:



There are several points to consider when specifying equipment for this project.

1. Budget. They don't want to spend more than ~CAD$3000 on the new purchases.
2. Expertise. The individuals running the stream and PA are utter normies, untrained in audio. The system must be dead simple to operate; basically set-and-forget like the one in the main sanctuary.
3. Layout. We need to make the equipment as unobtrusive as possible. Hiding cables is not impossible but it will be a challenge given the nature of the room.

A dedicated DSP is probably overkill in this room, and they need some kind of level control for the PA, so I figured a small digital mixer would fit the bill. The Behringer Flow 8 has all the IO they need as well as corrective EQ on the outputs. For the record I'm not a fan of Behringer but I can't think of another mixer that is as small with as many features for even close to the same price.

I'm envisioning a pair of passive wall-mounted array-style column speakers.
Passive because one of the speaker positions doesn't have power nearby, whereas speaker wire can be dropped down the wall cavity from above without too much trouble (I think).

I don't know the installation market very well at all.
Is there a mixer (besides the Flow or a DSP/control surface solution that is a) inexpensive and b)can be configured for simple operation?
What are some speaker / DSP / amp brands I ought to consider? The amp needs to be as small as possible.

Thanks for reading!

[Dave Pluke]

I've been taking audio gigs at a local synagogue for the past year.
Last week they asked if I could help them put together a small PA / streaming solution for their chapel.

Am I correct in assuming the program material is primarily Spoken Word plus a Cantor?  If so, you may find the JBL CBT series of column speakers will fit the bill.

I installed a pair of CBT 100's in a Synagogue a couple of years ago and found them well behaved and needing no real EQ in that role. I mounted them up high, aimed down and the output was very even across the room. They were powered by a Crown XLS 2002 driven by a Soundcraft Ui24R "console".

I bought a Flow 8 to carry as a backup and for Break-out sessions. The bluetooth control app is a bit clumsy but, once set up, the simple up/down Faders should keep most users out of trouble.

Sounds like you're on the right track.

Dave

[Herman Wolf]

Am I correct in assuming the program material is primarily Spoken Word plus a Cantor?

You are, indeed. Speaking and Canting; but only one at a time, and from the same position, so we can get away with a single gooseneck mic.
(That said, if we're going to be running cables through walls and floors I will definitely wire up more than just one!)

If so, you may find the JBL CBT series of column speakers will fit the bill.

I'll check them out as soon as I finish this reply.

I installed a pair of CBT 100's in a Synagogue a couple of years ago and found them well behaved and needing no real EQ in that role. I mounted them up high, aimed down and the output was very even across the room. They were powered by a Crown XLS 2002 driven by a Soundcraft Ui24R "console".

I'm a little more limited with regard to placement. I'm pretty sure they'll be firing over the heads of the folks in the first two rows.

I bought a Flow 8 to carry as a backup and for Break-out sessions. The bluetooth control app is a bit clumsy but, once set up, the simple up/down Faders should keep most users out of trouble.

Yeah, given its price, size, breadth of control option and simple fader layout it seems like the best option for this scenario. I'll hold my nose and add it to the project scope.

Sounds like you're on the right track.

Dave

Thanks, dood. 👍

[Herman Wolf]

I'm considering running Cat6a (I have a spool left unused from a home renovation) instead of multipair audio snake from the podium to the back of the room.
The particular cable I have is pretty inflexible and hard to pull but it's 23AWG and every pair is individually foiled. It has an overall braided shield IIR.

It's also cost me only only about ten cents per foot which is like fifteen times less expensive than 4-pair Canare (which I just priced at CAD ~$6.50/meter).

I've never used Category cable for analog audio before but Dave Rat seems to think it works a treat.
I've been trawling other threads trying glean opinions on using Category cable for analog runs but have yet to arrive at a consensus.

Thoughts?

[Mike Caldwell]

Maybe for the PA processor/mixer look at something like a DBX Zone Pro. That would do everything you need and once properly set up you could have one remote volume knob.
Simple software, easy to program.

[Scott Holtzman]

Hey, fam.
Part-time listener, first-time caller.

I've been taking audio gigs at a local synagogue for the past year.
Last week they asked if I could help them put together a small PA / streaming solution for their chapel.
They paid through the nose for a ridiculously OP system (Digico/QSC/Bose) in the main sanctuary and have no intention of repeating that experience so they called me instead of their AV contractor.

I'm here to ask for help with gear selection.

The chapel is oblong in shape, ~50'L x ~25'W x ~20'H. Speakers will be mounted on the walls flanking the podium. Photos forthcoming.

They already have dedicated streaming hardware (Podium Mic > Panasonic UX series 4K camera > USB HDMI capture > ThinkPad (Intel Graphics)).

They want to add a small PA.
I'm envisioning something like this:



There are several points to consider when specifying equipment for this project.

1. Budget. They don't want to spend more than ~CAD$3000 on the new purchases.
2. Expertise. The individuals running the stream and PA are utter normies, untrained in audio. The system must be dead simple to operate; basically set-and-forget like the one in the main sanctuary.
3. Layout. We need to make the equipment as unobtrusive as possible. Hiding cables is not impossible but it will be a challenge given the nature of the room.

A dedicated DSP is probably overkill in this room, and they need some kind of level control for the PA, so I figured a small digital mixer would fit the bill. The Behringer Flow 8 has all the IO they need as well as corrective EQ on the outputs. For the record I'm not a fan of Behringer but I can't think of another mixer that is as small with as many features for even close to the same price.

I'm envisioning a pair of passive wall-mounted array-style column speakers.
Passive because one of the speaker positions doesn't have power nearby, whereas speaker wire can be dropped down the wall cavity from above without too much trouble (I think).

I don't know the installation market very well at all.
Is there a mixer (besides the Flow or a DSP/control surface solution that is a) inexpensive and b)can be configured for simple operation?
What are some speaker / DSP / amp brands I ought to consider? The amp needs to be as small as possible.

Thanks for reading!

The streaming is important.  There is free software called Open Broadcast Studio, OBS.  If you have basic computer skills it has very nice features including a titler and the ability to "wipe" between the video and slides.  The real benefit is that is connects directly to services like Youtube and Facebook and bypasses all their processing.  Your audio stream and video stream would be massively improved.  If the camera is within a few feet of the computer you can get an HDMI interface for the computer.  If not an SDI to HDMI converts and you can run as much coax as you need.  I think you can squeeze that in your budget. 


Keep in mind the Flow 8 needs a tablet to access many of the eq and dynamics settings.

[Herman Wolf]

The streaming is important.  There is free software called Open Broadcast Studio, OBS.

Yeah, they've been using OBS for a couple of years, now, in the main sanctuary, where they have a dedicated streaming rig on the balcony. I came in and tweaked the audio processing for them last year while their AV contractor was in tweaking the house system and updating Q-Sys Designer (which I've trained myself on since).

If the camera is within a few feet of the computer you can get an HDMI interface for the computer.  If not an SDI to HDMI converts and you can run as much coax as you need.  I think you can squeeze that in your budget. 

The plan is to get the whole rig to live by the (soon-to-be-wall-mounted) camera in the back of the room specifically in order to minimize the need for format converters and long cable runs all over the place. I'd probably spec an HDMI cable from Blue Jeans Cables because I like that company's vibe (and their Monster Cable lawsuit story is endlessly entertaining).

Keep in mind the Flow 8 needs a tablet to access many of the eq and dynamics settings.

Yes, well aware, thank you.

[Herman Wolf]

Maybe for the PA processor/mixer look at something like a DBX Zone Pro. That would do everything you need and once properly set up you could have one remote volume knob.
Simple software, easy to program.

I looked at those. The cheapest ZonePro is twice the purchase price of the Flow 8 plus there would be additional installation costs for the control knob(s). Also, the Flow 8 has USB which could come in handy in a number of scenarios.
If the mixer doesn't work out, e.g people kept getting the faders confused, then I'd probably push them to have control knobs installed and buy a zone processor instead.

[Mike Caldwell]

I looked at those. The cheapest ZonePro is twice the purchase price of the Flow 8 plus there would be additional installation costs for the control knob(s). Also, the Flow 8 has USB which could come in handy in a number of scenarios.
If the mixer doesn't work out, e.g people kept getting the faders confused, then I'd probably push them to have control knobs installed and buy a zone processor instead.

I knew it would be more expensive but it could be set up with only a volume knob exposed, actually with it all set up and dialed in you may not even need a volume knob!

[Scott Holtzman]

Yeah, they've been using OBS for a couple of years, now, in the main sanctuary, where they have a dedicated streaming rig on the balcony. I came in and tweaked the audio processing for them last year while their AV contractor was in tweaking the house system and updating Q-Sys Designer (which I've trained myself on since).

The plan is to get the whole rig to live by the (soon-to-be-wall-mounted) camera in the back of the room specifically in order to minimize the need for format converters and long cable runs all over the place. I'd probably spec an HDMI cable from Blue Jeans Cables because I like that company's vibe (and their Monster Cable lawsuit story is endlessly entertaining).

Yes, well aware, thank you.

Sounds like you have a great handle on your tech.  I have some Blue Jeans cables at home, I am sure the HDMI will work just fine at that distance.  If you run the OBS on Linux I am going to think you are a ringer.

[Herman Wolf]

Sounds like you have a great handle on your tech.

Thank you.
I guess I should explain that I'm here not because I'm unfamiliar with the technology or its applications. Quite the contrary; I've been involved in audio for nearly 30 years. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool nerd. I have boxes of brochures and catalogs dating back to 1996 to prove it.

Rather, I started this thread because this is my first time accepting what is essentially an AV contracting gig and despite my comfort level with the technology in general I feel somewhat like a fraud in this space.
Also I recognize my enormous propensity for making mistakes my first time out.

I don't have any IRL friends in the AV contracting space so I signed up here for support and ideas.

I have some Blue Jeans cables at home, I am sure the HDMI will work just fine at that distance

👍

If you run the OBS on Linux I am going to think you are a ringer.

Ha, no I'm not quite that boss. I've dabbled with various distros at home but not in many years and not to the degree that I'd know what I'm doing.

[Scott Holtzman]

Thank you.
I guess I should explain that I'm here not because I'm unfamiliar with the technology or its applications. Quite the contrary; I've been involved in audio for nearly 30 years. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool nerd. I have boxes of brochures and catalogs dating back to 1996 to prove it.

Rather, I started this thread because this is my first time accepting what is essentially an AV contracting gig and despite my comfort level with the technology in general I feel somewhat like a fraud in this space.
Also I recognize my enormous propensity for making mistakes my first time out.

I don't have any IRL friends in the AV contracting space so I signed up here for support and ideas.

👍

Ha, no I'm not quite that boss. I've dabbled with various distros at home but not in many years and not to the degree that I'd know what I'm doing.

Mistakes are how you learn.  If you have destroyed something really expensive you haven't tried hard enough. 


96` ?  A youngen around here.  1978 for me though I was dabbling in 1975.

[Herman Wolf]

Mistakes are how you learn.  If you have destroyed something really expensive you haven't tried hard enough. 

I've made my share along the way. Not all in audio.

96` ?  A youngen around here.  1978 for me though I was dabbling in 1975.

Yeah, I'm basically still in diapers.
I caught the audio bug ~1992 when I realized I intuitively understood how to set up the PA and run the mixer for the high school talent show. Of course, the contracted sound guy wasn't quite ready to let some random 15-year-old kid mess up the production. He was right and I had backstage duties, anyway, but that's basically when it started. Same year I started playing guitar.

My collection of recording magazines started a few years later and ended when Stephen St. Croix died.

In college I discovered REP magazine and managed to collect some back issues. Still have them in a garage somewhere.

[Scott Holtzman]

I've made my share along the way. Not all in audio.

Yeah, I'm basically still in diapers.
I caught the audio bug ~1992 when I realized I intuitively understood how to set up the PA and run the mixer for the high school talent show. Of course, the contracted sound guy wasn't quite ready to let some random 15-year-old kid mess up the production. He was right and I had backstage duties, anyway, but that's basically when it started. Same year I started playing guitar.

My collection of recording magazines started a few years later and ended when Stephen St. Croix died.

In college I discovered REP magazine and managed to collect some back issues. Still have them in a garage somewhere.

That's not too far off of my story.  I already had the audio bug and was a ham radio operator at 10.  I fixed up a pair of old Magnavox mono amps out of a console stereo with some two ways that my Dad was kind enough to lend his amazing woodworking skill and of course overdid it with gorgeous joinery and taught me how to paint it correctly.  The sounded amazing for random bits I collected for nothing.  I did save up my pennies for a Technics turntable and a Stanton cartridge.  That was a heck of a system for a child.  The preamp was passive and I built the phone preamp from a design out of a magazine.  My amateur mentor showed me how to put another set of transistors in the output stage of the phone preamp and get another 9db so the passive preamp was amazing.  That system served me until I was 16 I only added an Akai open reel and a Kenwood cassette. 


Back to the live sound, something happened to the sound guy and church and I had been shadowing him so at 13 years old I mixed a Methodist service for about 400 on a Bogen amp and speakers hung live every 6 feet.  I did that until I was 15 and the church had a "new member" that thought a child should not be doing sound.  Mind you I asked him if he could repair XLR's, troubleshoot the 70v system, he had no clue.  What he did have was the money for a Vocalmaster.  Since I basically told everyone that the speakers mounted in the Transept at about 7 feet was not going to cover the back of the room and be too loud for the people in Transept.  I mentioned the only thing this guy has that we need is money and he was an idiot.  I got a good lesson in adult politics and I was fired.  Yes the system sucked and he could not mix so it was feedback city until I went off to college.  It didn't really matter as I had already been mixing on the high school auditorium in middle school, a stack of the old Shure 4 input rotary dial mixers (they sounded great) with Bose 802's I believe they were in a custom flown cabinet, 4 of them)  It was a powerful system for the day and I could use the 2 band parametric EQ and get some real gain out of the lavs so I had biggey toys to play with including 16 dimmer channels on a 2 scene preset Scirpan (I think that is the spelling) and two follow spots outside the "booth".  So by the time I graduated high school I was doing some cover band work, a little theatre and some political stuff for a friend of my Dad's.  Amateur radio piddled away as I was working after school at a Motorola MSO fixing and installing 2 way radios that weighed 70lbs in filthy garbage trucks etc.  I was working a flow bench at a racing shop on the weekends so my college fund was well stocked. 


That is the next chapter.  I was in the theater on my 2nd day of college.  They were on deck to get a Strand Century pallet and had a Yamaha audio console and VoT's with BGW.  Started working in clubs and took a semester off to do my one and only tour.  A waffed in and out of autio my whole life including a 3 years stint at First Baptist Jacksonville.  We had around 6000 in main service.  I was brought in because they had just rented an hour of time on a local VHF station and I came in to setup the STL.  I knew how to work with master control and get the link switched over and the Grass Valley switcher was cake.  I sub'd in audio occasionally too.


About 12 years ago I started doing sound for a cover band in Cleveland as I had the itch.  That's when these fine people started helping me and getting my head around new processes.  I ended up buying a QSC rig and the first x32 that I know of in Cleveland and started working with my business partner Shawn Casper (hence the Ghost AV name).  He had contacts my day job and empty nester provided plenty of capital.  We have screamed up in the last 5 years buying out another competitor that took us to the next level.   I am about ready to retire from my day job and run the audio company full time until I can't work and hopefully find a nice young person that wants to learn the business and take it over as I have no kids so it's either that our flat sell out. 


So yeppers geek from 10 to 58 and still going strong.  Nice to hear someone else's story.  I tried to condense that I hope it didn't sound like the ramblings of a lunatic. 
   

[Herman Wolf]

So yeppers geek from 10 to 58 and still going strong.  Nice to hear someone else's story.  I tried to condense that I hope it didn't sound like the ramblings of a lunatic. 

No, dude, that was a great story. You've definitely been around the block more times than I have. I worked with lots of local bands live and in the studio throughout my 20's and 30's. But I also did a lot of work as a computer technician and a graphic designer, although my primary interest has always been audio. I'm halfway through my 40's now and all that has slowed down a lot. I work more with spreadsheets now than anything else 😂.

Anyway, sorry for not replying sooner, I was out for a week with my first bout of the covid and then spend the following week in a kind of recovery haze with lingering symptoms. Feeling better now.

Which reminds me, I need to call the synagogue and tell them I'm two weeks behind. 🤦‍♂️

[ProSoundWeb Community]