Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ryan Reicker]

Hey all,

First post in this forum, if it is the wrong section please correct and I apologize for that. Quick background on my capabilities, I am a self taught sound man at my local church. I have learned by reading and by diving in and getting hands on experience. We did not have anyone to learn from, so there has been a lot of trial and error. I learned on an old Yamaha EMX5000 any everything was run on passive speakers. Our church is a big long rectangle, our stage is an odd shape, I will post a drawing with dimensions in a bit so everyone has an idea what I am up against.

Our church just did an upgrade of the sound system, this consists of the following
1. Yamaha tf3 mixer
2. 2 active Yamaha FOH speakers
3. 2, aux 1 active monitors for vocalists.
4. 1, aux 2 active monitor for keyboard player
5. A headset system for drummer and guitarists. Dont have this yet, but it sets each instrument on their own aux line that they control via Bluetooth.

When the professional came to set it up it sounded so good. It was so clear but has degraded since that happened a few months ago with different singers and different hands in the mix.

So the first item I want to address: when the professional came to install the board and show us the features, he went over the gain finder feature. As per him he said when the singers are belting it out they should be hitting the green (Center) and not venturing into the orange or the red on the finder itself. On the vocalists channel it’s rare to get a peak light but a orange is somewhat common. I have been struggling to keep gain in the centre green area, I find when singers do a sound check, whether that is talking or singing, they always sing/talk soft then when it comes to a service they are belting (some scream lol) which means they go from being in the green to being consistently orange or touching the red on the gain finder. So I turn the gain down and try to bump their slider a little to give them a little  more volume . They complain about losing  power in their vocal they might be able to hear but it is not powerful, and if I am not careful I run into feedback (squealing) if I bump their slider to much.  How do I prevent this? Was I taught wrong and that running in the orange and red is okay as long as they are not hitting the peak light oln their channel?

We have one person who grew up around sound and even though they don’t want to be involved they are making changes to the system based on what sounds good for them (they sing) regularly, mainly gain structure changes with some EQ changes but our opinions differ on the gain finder as this person always runs in the orange with frequent red. I want to know what the pro’s say about the above, please keep in mind I am not a pro and so please keep It simple stupid for me, some terms go over my head.

[Corey Scogin]

They complain about losing  power in their vocal they might be able to hear but it is not powerful, and if I am not careful I run into feedback (squealing) if I bump their slider to much.  How do I prevent this?

When you turn the input gain down, you're turning down their mix. Bumping the main house mix fader does not turn it back up in their mix. You'll need to adjust their mix (aux) also.

Was I taught wrong and that running in the orange and red is okay as long as they are not hitting the peak light oln their channel?

On the Yamaha TF, orange meter range starts at -20 dB. The standard for setting gain is to "average" at -18 dB. So, for singing/playing at typical levels, hitting the first orange light is the ideal average level, hence the little marks beside that light (see pic). That gives headroom for louder singing/playing when needed.

Hitting the red "clip/over/peak" level is not ok. I would only adjust a vocal gain if they are getting close to peaking or you suspect they will during the performance.

PS: If you aren't doing this already, selecting the Cue button on a given input channel should put their signal level on that larger main level meter so you can see it more accurately.

[Dave Pluke]

I have been struggling to keep gain in the centre green area, I find when singers do a sound check, whether that is talking or singing, they always sing/talk soft then when it comes to a service they are belting (some scream lol) which means they go from being in the green to being consistently orange or touching the red on the gain finder.

Heed Corey's advice. I hesitate to suggest mixing with one's eyes, but to understand each mixer's LED ladder is important and you need not fear an orange or two on that console.

If the singers' levels are inconsistent, get familiar with the Compressor function for their channels.

Dave

[Brian Jojade]

A happy gain level maximizes signal to noise ratio and at the same time, stays out of clipping.

A lower gain amplified later in the chain will amplify any noise along the path.  In analog boards, this mattered a lot.  Digital boards are MUCH more forgiving for low gain.

However, digital boards tend to be much less forgiving with a clipped signal.  A slight clip on an analog signal may be barely noticeable, but in the digital realm could be extremely bad sounding.

As you have experienced, sound check tends to be a little lower in volume than in reality.  Plan for that and set your gains a little lower to compensate for that.  As long as you're not running into clip, once you've set your gains, it's best to just leave those alone for the duration of the show. 

Adjusting gains will change everything about that channel, including the monitor levels, effects, potentially EQ curves, etc.

Regarding feedback, the combination of gain and slider position represents total gain on the channel.  Turning one up and the other down won't magically fix feedback in any way at all.  Other things such as EQ, mic placement, monitor levels, etc. are what you need to adjust to eliminate that.

[Ryan Reicker]

Hey Corey,

Sorry I should have specified but yes I do adjust their monitor mix.

I attached a picture of the gain finder.. I always try to have them in the centre as I was taught.

So my question is do I trust the gain finder and keep them in the Centre or trust my ears and make sure that a singers channel is not cliipping?

[Ryan Reicker]

Hey Brian,

we have decent eq’s set. I will there are a couple rules I follow that I have found on YouTube for getting a base, then tweak for each singer.

[Steve-White]

Bangin' the orange or yellow just above the green is where you want the vocal channels on virtually any console.

And yes, once the house fills up most musicians will pump it up a click.  Probably just human nature, but a full house tends to attenuate things a bit from sound check.  That's especially true in a dance club with a dance floor.  Empty dance floor eq is typically a tad on the bright side to compensate for this condition.

Unless a vocal channel goes into saturation on the input, you're not going to make any friends dropping the gains.  If they're a bit dominant in the overall mix, just work the compressor a bit to take the edge off of things.

[Corey Scogin]

Hey Corey,
Sorry I should have specified but yes I do adjust their monitor mix.

A closer read of your comment implies that. I should have read your original post a bit more closely.

All other things equal, a modest input gain reduction and corresponding aux channel fader increase should not affect feedback or perceived loudness unless the compressor is being hit very hard. You may have already been close to feedback before adjusting gains and faders.

Keep in mind that the number of open mics and the number of live outputs affect the overall system gain-before-feedback. Meaning, try to only put what each person needs in their monitor, minimizing other inputs.
If the performer asks for more of themself over and over until their mic is feeding back from their monitor, ask them to get closer to the mic, sing louder, and also bump their overall mix down a touch without changing it.

If you find yourself regularly fighting feedback, you may want to "ring out" the monitor speakers before the band arrives. To do this, turn up each mic in the corresponding mix until it begins to feedback. Find the feedback frequency and cut it from the corresponding mix output EQ. Do this until you are hearing more than one feedback frequency. That is an indicator that you can optimize no further. Consider resetting the EQ and redoing this occasionally if the stage layout changes or you change microphones.

So my question is do I trust the gain finder and keep them in the Centre or trust my ears and make sure that a singers channel is not cliipping?

I wouldn't worry about keeping them in the center. Gain Finder type functions are meant for initial gain setup, not as something to watch regularly.
Do keep an eye on the clip lights though. Anything more than a rare, brief flash on the clip light is worth investigating more closely. You should hear clipping if it happens but you might not always and if you hear it, you may not know at first where it's coming from. Those lights are helpful as a sanity check.

Side note on clip lights: many consoles light the clip light a few dB early giving you a bit of warning if something is getting close. That means a channel indicating brief signal clipping may not actually be clipping yet but is close enough that it needs to be addressed.

[Ryan Reicker]

Finding the feedback frequency.

Corey, your post helped a lot and has given direction, but can you give some insight on how to do this. This is not the first time I have heard through my research.

Also we do not play around with the following two things.
Compressor
FOH/aux output eq.

I have wanted to learn but I don’t/haven’t had a lot of just practice time to learn more about the board. I have found a video series on this board.

[Corey Scogin]

Finding the feedback frequency. Corey, your post helped a lot and has given direction, but can you give some insight on how to do this. This is not the first time I have heard through my research.

Unfortunately I don't have on hand a good set of instructions for that and no time to weed through YouTube videos to find a good educational one.
Maybe someone else has a link to a good resource.

Also we do not play around with the following two things.
Compressor
FOH/aux output eq.

You may want to at least glance at the compressors occasionally. A low threshold causing lots of gain reduction can lead to comments from performers about it sounding dull (if the monitor mix is post-compressor, it may or may not be).

Ringing out monitors will require adjusting the monitor output EQ, preferably using a graphic eq. If you're not comfortable with that then you can do it with the individual channel parametric EQ but it will also affect the sound in the Front of House mix as well. It's a compromise. If you're really having trouble with the feedback, it might be good to get a professional to come in and assist on occasion.

[ProSoundWeb Community]