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Author Topic: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater  (Read 3255 times)

Brian Jojade

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Re: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2022, 09:28:48 PM »

It the in-house cabling is terminated at plates on both ends, what can you mess up? It's just plugging in xlr's or ethernet.

I think what he meant is that there was only a single conduit, and the in house runs were there when the act pulled cables through and damaged wire that was already in the tube.  Putting the house runs in a dedicated tube and leaving a completely empty (except for pull cable) tube for acts is the way to go.
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Peter Kowalczyk

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Re: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2022, 01:18:57 AM »

You could just increase the quantity of network runs and then use ethercon to XLR on either end as needed.  More flexibility that way.

Thanks, I thought of that, but wondered about controlled-impedance for DMX.  Now, if Cat 6A is good for 10-gig Ethernet, I have to assume it would be okay for DMX.   At least one google hit tells me it's designed with a characteristic impedance of 100 Ohms.

Has anyone tried sending straight DMX down category wire?  Gotchas?
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Peter Kowalczyk

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Re: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2022, 01:21:37 AM »

100% this!  Even if the tube is properly installed to drain completely it can end up filled if rodents decode to plug it up a bit.

Recommended installation, if in a flat area would be to have the tube crown slightly with the high spot in the middle so any water would not want to flow through the pipe.

Cap the ends when not in use.  I personally like to have a long enough pull rope that I can leave it attached to each cap so there's no chance of it 'accidentally getting pulled out of the tube.  The extra length can simply be stuffed into the tube when capped.


Good thoughts here.  The pipe has a few degrees of rake from the FOH position down to stage.  However, the sand 'dancefloor' is lower in elevation than either, so I don't see how this pipe could avoid having a low-point in the middle.  Maybe we'll need a clean-out access port there at the inflection point?
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2022, 08:52:09 AM »

Thanks, I thought of that, but wondered about controlled-impedance for DMX.  Now, if Cat 6A is good for 10-gig Ethernet, I have to assume it would be okay for DMX.   At least one google hit tells me it's designed with a characteristic impedance of 100 Ohms.

Has anyone tried sending straight DMX down category wire?  Gotchas?

110 vs 100 ohms, it's fine.

---

To OP:
2-4x SDI runs would be nice for video stuff.
Though, LED Walls are gonna run 3-4 lines of Cat6A unless they put the processor on stage.

I like Jason R.'s idea of more of replacing the STP with Cat6A (2x Cat5e FTP instead since Behringer doesn't like the added twist rate of 6/6A).
If the house venue has a few ethercon breakout boxes then it solves the problem of a company not having any and needing traditional xlr's...
Heck, you could just run the cable and terminate to 3-XLR for now...

If it were me some quick testers & some adapters to prove to the touring company the house cabling works would be nice. I know I always shy away from house lines if they look like junk. Store in the WP box somehow?

Testers:
-SoundTools XLR Sniffer/Sender Cable Tester
-Network Cable Continuity Tester

Adapters:
-XLR-F barrel
-XLR-M barrel
-3XLR-5XLR (dmx conveter)
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Steve-White

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Re: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2022, 10:52:08 AM »

I think what he meant is that there was only a single conduit, and the in house runs were there when the act pulled cables through and damaged wire that was already in the tube.  Putting the house runs in a dedicated tube and leaving a completely empty (except for pull cable) tube for acts is the way to go.

That would be the expected result of such a setup.
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Dave Garoutte

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Re: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2022, 02:32:02 PM »

I think what he meant is that there was only a single conduit, and the in house runs were there when the act pulled cables through and damaged wire that was already in the tube.  Putting the house runs in a dedicated tube and leaving a completely empty (except for pull cable) tube for acts is the way to go.
The two pipe setup was what I suggested.  The house one being terminated to waterproof boxes and the aux one with end caps and pull rope.
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Steve-White

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Re: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2022, 03:34:08 PM »

The two pipe setup was what I suggested.  The house one being terminated to waterproof boxes and the aux one with end caps and pull rope.

I see your 2 and raise you 1 more.  AC, control, guest.  Can't run low voltage DMX with AC, so adding an auxillary conduit will be a total of 3 for the optimal solution.

Two for the house, AC & control.  A 8" for the guest run.
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Tim Hite

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Re: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2022, 07:54:02 PM »

I think what he meant is that there was only a single conduit, and the in house runs were there when the act pulled cables through and damaged wire that was already in the tube.  Putting the house runs in a dedicated tube and leaving a completely empty (except for pull cable) tube for acts is the way to go.

It the in-house cabling is terminated at plates on both ends, what can you mess up? It's just plugging in xlr's or ethernet.

Ahh no, the integrator (a large backline rental company) decided to just leave a bunch of 10' lengths of CAT 5e sticking up in a Christie box with another meal port above it in the slab. Someone had slammed the metal lid on a couple of the UTP cables.

Also, terminating to a panel is not compatible with AES50 for X/M32, spec says no connectors in the signal path.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2022, 08:54:23 AM »

Also, terminating to a panel is not compatible with AES50 for X/M32, spec says no connectors in the signal path.

Then they shouldn't put connectors on their devices. They should all include a 300ft roll of tactical cat5e ftp  :P

Spec 'says' and what will work reliably can be different.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2022, 08:26:08 PM »

Time for The Dave Stevens Anvil of Reality«

I'm not using your installed cables.  Period, end of story.  If your venue stuff causes any problems whatsoever, it's my job on the line.  I'm not going to take your word that it's all okay and yes, I'm sure it worked fine at the last show... but it's my reputation with my client and my income at risk.  Chances are also pretty good that the venue will not have the mix of cable types/quantities I need, so it's a kludge and that's not on the agenda.

Next, I'm not pulling my tour cabling through your conduit.  End of story.  Period.  If something got stuck or damaged... well, same consequences as above.  If the venue insists, I can arrange for an identical cable package to be shipped to the venue, they can pull it and if it tests 100% when I get there, I'll use it.  And they can pull it back out, ship it back to the tour vendor and pay for any damage found.  But my tour snakes ain't going down the venue hole into a fully enclosed pipe.

Now, wearing my local sound vendor hat...  I'll use your empty 8" conduit after we run a burlap sack ('borrowed' from rigging) through the length and back.  If it makes the trip, dry, we'll pull.  If there are obstructions or water I have 300 ft of Yellow Jackets that just got added to the invoice.  But we'll use my cables.  If it's a 'family day in the park' with story tellers, magicians, jugglers, singer/songwriters, I might use the installed cabling because there's a decent chance that enough of it works.

From the "darn, I wish they'd done THIS when they re-built this place" file - Absolutely agree with @Tim Hite about running dedicated AC service to FOH.  Depending on the size of the venue and anticipated future use, I'd recommend 2 services:  first a single phase 120/240 single phase 50 amp for a spider box at FOH; second a 120/208 3 phase 100 amp service with disconnect, in a suitably rated enclosure.  If the park is big enough to need 3kW spots, or an audio delay ring (or both), having 3 phase at/near FOH will be a Really Good Thing.

The advice to up-size conductors is good.  I think one of the primary reasons I've had few power-related problems over the years is my belief that fat copper is more electron-friendly. 8)  Today, with the price of copper being what it is I'd expect budgetary push back but try to get bigger wire to the furthest and most likely full load locations.  It helps.  Really.
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Re: FOH Cable Runs for Outdoor Amphitheater
┬ź Reply #19 on: March 17, 2022, 08:26:08 PM ┬╗


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