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Author Topic: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name  (Read 1663 times)

Matt Vivlamore

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2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« on: February 14, 2022, 12:16:09 PM »

I have a FOH (SQ5) console and an Stage Rackcase (DSP & Enttec DMX, but plan on adding more to the stage rack) and want to connect both spots without running a network cable from FOH to Stage and run under 1 Wifi connection.  Iím hoping to mount something in the case bottom. 

Is this possible?

How would I do this?

But If I need to, I can tape another Cat5e line to my drive snake. 
I tried plugging my Ubiquiti Unifi AP-AC directly into my SQ5 and it couldnít make a full connection. 
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Corey Scogin

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2022, 01:25:38 PM »

Another AP in client mode should work.
Here's a guy that goes through it with Ubiquiti APs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCB61jc0PUA
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Russell Ault

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2022, 02:48:35 PM »

I have a FOH (SQ5) console and an Stage Rackcase (DSP & Enttec DMX, but plan on adding more to the stage rack) and want to connect both spots without running a network cable from FOH to Stage and run under 1 Wifi connection.  Iím hoping to mount something in the case bottom. 

Is this possible?

How would I do this?

But If I need to, I can tape another Cat5e line to my drive snake. 
I tried plugging my Ubiquiti Unifi AP-AC directly into my SQ5 and it couldnít make a full connection.

What you're describing is often referred to as a Wi-Fi "bridge". There are a few different ways to achieve this, but if you're using UniFi APs you can configure them to use "wireless uplink" (sometimes know as "mesh"), which will allow them to act as both normal APs and as a Wi-Fi bridge simultaneously. (Note that wireless uplink functionality comes with a couple trade-offs: it reduces the number of SSIDs the APs support by half, and it requires enabling the "uplink connectivity monitor", i.e. the first thing most of us disable on UniFi APs).

IMHO, though, this is the wrong way to solve your problem. Since you're already running cable from stage to FOH, looming a couple chunks of Cat5e onto your FOH run will cost peanuts, add nothing to the setup time, and will be way more reliable than using a wireless link. (The more time I spend working with RF, the more I've come to really love and appreciate wires...)

-Russ
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Brian Jojade

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2022, 05:03:43 PM »

To achieve what you are trying to do, you need a device that supports mesh networking.  Essentially, one device will connect to the other device's wireless network, then create another network access point with the same name.

2 major problems with mesh networks, especially in the way you want to use it.  First, each wireless link introduces latency as well as reduces maximum throughput.  That may not matter much for basic control function, but it's important to be aware of.

The second issue is that for the mesh network to function, that means the wireless signal needs to be strong enough between the two access points.  Well, if your second access point is at FOH, and you're looking to access from FOH, that means the wireless signal from the first access point is already getting there. For the mesh to really provide any advantage, you'd need to position the repeater somewhere in between where you want access.  If you're already right on the edge of the signal strength, you're going to just see stronger signal on your device as it can connect to the nearby access point but the connection between may be spotty and unreliable and just be a constant frustration.

Easy answer is attach a cat 5 to your snake.  Run EVERYTHING WIRED THAT YOU CAN.  Proper mesh networks will hand off device connections gracefully.  'poor man' mesh networks that simply utilize access points with the same name/password work ok for devices that don't move around, but you may find that your device holds on to a signal from an access point further away until the connection drops and re-connects to the closer access point.

Oh, and while you're at it, add EtherCon patch points to your road cases.  They can still accept RJ45 cables, but unless you like putting new ends on constantly, EtherCon hoods make life way way easier.
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Brian Jojade

John Schalk

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2022, 10:26:14 AM »

Matt,

If you end up going with the EVERYTHING WIRED solution, consider getting shielded Cat5e.  That way you can use the extra runs for "Cat Tails" if need be.  You need the shield for phantom power or to run DMX through the Cat5/XLR adaptors.  Unshielded Cat5 will pass audio for good old dynamic mics though. 
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Matt Vivlamore

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2022, 12:34:14 PM »

Matt,

If you end up going with the EVERYTHING WIRED solution, consider getting shielded Cat5e.  That way you can use the extra runs for "Cat Tails" if need be.  You need the shield for phantom power or to run DMX through the Cat5/XLR adaptors.  Unshielded Cat5 will pass audio for good old dynamic mics though.

Most consoles require shielded Cat5e, I'd rather run the tactical/ultimate/tour-grade CAT cables over a generic store type.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2022, 02:05:27 PM »

Most consoles require shielded Cat5e
Do you know of others besides the Behringer and (non-pro) Midas consoles?
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-Andy

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Mac Kerr

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2022, 04:41:02 PM »

Most consoles require shielded Cat5e, I'd rather run the tactical/ultimate/tour-grade CAT cables over a generic store type.

Which non-Music Tribe consoles require shielded CAT cable?
Mac
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2022, 05:12:49 PM »

Which non-Music Tribe consoles require shielded CAT cable?
Mac

Allen and Heath recommends shielded cable.  No idea if it requires it.
https://support.allen-heath.com/hc/en-gb/articles/4403615333009-General-Recommended-cables
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Russell Ault

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2022, 07:36:21 PM »

Most consoles require shielded Cat5e, I'd rather run the tactical/ultimate/tour-grade CAT cables over a generic store type.

Do you know of others besides the Behringer and (non-pro) Midas consoles?

In fairness, judging by how many X32s have been sold, it's possible at this point that "most consoles require shielded Cat5e" is a technically-accurate statement. :D

-Russ
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dave briar

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2022, 11:47:15 AM »

Allen and Heath recommends shielded cable.  No idea if it requires it.
https://support.allen-heath.com/hc/en-gb/articles/4403615333009-General-Recommended-cables
We connected our QU-24 and then subsequently our SQ6 to the 24x12 stagebox via a plain old unshielded Cat5 cable ó likely not even Cat5e ó for five years without a single issue. When we remodeled recently we ran four shielded Cat6 and that works fine as well.  Length of run and electrical influences enroute may be a confounding factor. 
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Matt Vivlamore

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2022, 12:03:26 PM »

Which non-Music Tribe consoles require shielded CAT cable?
Mac

A lot...

Per the Allen Heath, in the AR2412 & GX4816 manual... "Cat5e (or higher) STP (Shielded Twisted Pair) cable should be used, ..."

Per Avid, in the S6L use guide: Shielded Cat 5e (350 MHz) or better Ethernet cable with Neutrik etherCON connectors are required

Per Yamaha on the QL/CL manual: Dante PRIMARY/SECONDARY connectors Used to connect to other Dante audio network devices, such as an Rio3224-D I/O device. Use standard Ethernet cables with Neutrik etherCON CAT5e compatible RJ-45 plugs.
NOTE: Use STP (shielded twisted pair) cable to prevent electromagnetic interference. Make sure that the metal parts of the plugs are electrically connected to the STP cable shield by conductive tape or comparable means.
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Brian Jojade

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2022, 12:59:30 PM »

Saying that console REQUIRE shielded cable is like saying balanced audio lines REQUIRE shielded cables.  It may work some of the time, or even most of the time. However, if there's outside interference, noise could enter the system and cause issue.  Some equipment is more sensitive than others to noise.

The X32 systems are extremely sensitive and can do really REALLY bad things with bad cables.  Heck, even STEPPING on a cable and having the conductors inside shift can cause an X32 to go full nuclear for a moment.  It's not fun.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2022, 01:31:54 PM »

Saying that console REQUIRE shielded cable is like saying balanced audio lines REQUIRE shielded cables.  It may work some of the time, or even most of the time. However, if there's outside interference, noise could enter the system and cause issue.  Some equipment is more sensitive than others to noise.

The X32 systems are extremely sensitive and can do really REALLY bad things with bad cables.  Heck, even STEPPING on a cable and having the conductors inside shift can cause an X32 to go full nuclear for a moment.  It's not fun.
I've never heard of any other consoles other than the Behringer and non-pro Midas (and maybe Heritage-D) that have problems when using unshielded CAT5e/6 cable. Of course, just that I haven't heard of such issues doesn't mean they don't happen, so  I'm not saying that you SHOULDN'T use STP if you can. Doing so you'll be covered for all situations.
However, the severe issues when using UTP are particular to the MT line of consoles, and may be continued with the Heritage-D as well; too soon to know yet...
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-Andy

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Russell Ault

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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2022, 01:33:45 PM »

Saying that console REQUIRE shielded cable is like saying balanced audio lines REQUIRE shielded cables.  It may work some of the time, or even most of the time. However, if there's outside interference, noise could enter the system and cause issue.  Some equipment is more sensitive than others to noise.

The X32 systems are extremely sensitive and can do really REALLY bad things with bad cables.  Heck, even STEPPING on a cable and having the conductors inside shift can cause an X32 to go full nuclear for a moment.  It's not fun.

I think this is an important distinction. Many console manufacturers recommend STP for their network connections, but ultimately Ethernet (even Milan/AVB) is just Ethernet, and Ethernet is designed to work happily over UTP under all sorts of conditions. The X32 and its ilk are the only consoles I know of that actually require STP, and the reason for this has nothing to do with AES50 and everything to do with Behringer screwing up the implementation's grounding design so badly that using anything other than shield-cabled-with-bonded-EtherCONs will practically guarantee ESD-related failures.

-Russ
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Re: 2 'hot spots' with 1 wifi name
¬ę Reply #14 on: February 17, 2022, 01:33:45 PM ¬Ľ


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