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[Kemper Watson]

One of my gigs has started doing indoor shows in a very live room with a grand piano.  It kind of hard to gain up mics. Is a Helpistill pickup system worth the price.? HAs anyone here used one?. Do they sound natural?

[Tim Halligan]

An alternative you might consider is a couple of Crown PZMs taped to the underside of the piano's lid.

Works well with the lid fully closed.

HTH

Cheers,
Tim

[Tim McCulloch]

The Helpinstil pickup system requires a lot of fiddling about to get it right.  Once you do, it's golden.  Whether or not it sounds natural is, IMHO, irrelevant.  Why?  Because someone wants a grand piano amplified to ridiculous levels while other instrument amplifiers pound the piano's soundboard (which you cannot eliminate).

The way this was handled on Elton John's tour 25+years ago was to stuff the piano bottom with sponge foam, use a Helpinstil pickup, and add reverb and EQ to make it sound 'grand'.  A few years later the  9' grand was modified into an electronic trigger piano that played a sampler off stage.  It was not possible to get the levels Sir Elton needed in his wedges without it a) sounding bad and b) erupting into a wall of feedback.

Schertler also makes a piano pickup/contact mic system you may wish to audition.

[Doug Fowler]

The Helpinstil pickup system requires a lot of fiddling about to get it right.  Once you do, it's golden.  Whether or not it sounds natural is, IMHO, irrelevant.  Why?  Because someone wants a grand piano amplified to ridiculous levels while other instrument amplifiers pound the piano's soundboard (which you cannot eliminate).

The way this was handled on Elton John's tour 25+years ago was to stuff the piano bottom with sponge foam, use a Helpinstil pickup, and add reverb and EQ to make it sound 'grand'.  A few years later the  9' grand was modified into an electronic trigger piano that played a sampler off stage.  It was not possible to get the levels Sir Elton needed in his wedges without it a) sounding bad and b) erupting into a wall of feedback.

Schertler also makes a piano pickup/contact mic system you may wish to audition.

Schertler is “pretty ok”, but needs a lot of placement work, and a lot of EQ.  If I’m in a rush I would place them (there are two) in the recommended area (ball park placement) then spend my time with EQ.  IIRC Schertler has some guidelines about placement. 

They work well, the putty they come with will not come loose, and you can normally get a sound you can live with that gets loud in the monitors.  It’s a compromise (imagine that!) but you can work with it.

[Riley Casey]

I used two or three Shure SM98s for micing grands with the lids down for years with success. The DPA piano mounts with 4099s do a similar job. I've watched people take literally hours to set up a Helpenstil to their satisfaction on the piano du jour so I've long considered that a tour thing, not a one off thing.

[John Sulek]

One of my gigs has started doing indoor shows in a very live room with a grand piano.  It kind of hard to gain up mics. Is a Helpistill pickup system worth the price.? HAs anyone here used one?. Do they sound natural?

There is also the Yamahiko pickups that are less fiddly to install then a Helpinstill.
https://www.yamahiko.info/en/products-2/piano-pickup

[Ike Zimbel]

I used two or three Shure SM98s for micing grands with the lids down for years with success. The DPA piano mounts with 4099s do a similar job. I've watched people take literally hours to set up a Helpenstil to their satisfaction on the piano du jour so I've long considered that a tour thing, not a one off thing.

Yep, I've used two DPA lavs (I don't recall the model number) taped across the middle of the frame 6-8" apart, about 4" back from the hammers, lid fully closed. Worked and sounded great.
And a note: Since the early 2000's, anytime I have mic'ed a piano, I have used some variation of the mics being about 6" apart (as in: "Never mic anything bigger than your head!") and placed near the center of the keys and a few inches above / back from the hammers. These variations can be X-Y, ORTF, the two lavs mentioned above etc, often with a cardioid pointing towards the low end and the mic aimed at the high end in omni mode. The important thing here is because the mics are spaced about the width of a human head apart, the arrival time makes sense to our ears. This is important for the piano, and even more important for any bleed that gets into the mics. Do NOT take my word for it...try it yourself!

[Dave Garoutte]

Kemper, I have a Helpinstill if you want to try it out.

[John Sulek]

Yep, I've used two DPA lavs (I don't recall the model number) taped across the middle of the frame 6-8" apart, about 4" back from the hammers, lid fully closed. Worked and sounded great.
And a note: Since the early 2000's, anytime I have mic'ed a piano, I have used some variation of the mics being about 6" apart (as in: "Never mic anything bigger than your head!") and placed near the center of the keys and a few inches above / back from the hammers. These variations can be X-Y, ORTF, the two lavs mentioned above etc, often with a cardioid pointing towards the low end and the mic aimed at the high end in omni mode. The important thing here is because the mics are spaced about the width of a human head apart, the arrival time makes sense to our ears. This is important for the piano, and even more important for any bleed that gets into the mics. Do NOT take my word for it...try it yourself!

Ike nailed it. This method works. Used it with two 414's a few times.
Paint stir sticks (or any piece of thin lath) are your friend for making a quick sturdy mounting bar for mics. Gaff tape bridges across the harp eventually sag at the worst possible moment.
Or you can spring for one of these excellent  mounting options...
https://pianomount.com/gallery/
I can't find the link but Tom Young had some nice wooden clamps for mounting mics off the harp that were available to buy at one point.

[Kemper Watson]

Kemper, I have a Helpinstill if you want to try it out.

Thank you but there is only one more show this year (this Friday) and I'm going to rough it one more time. They will do more in the spring. I may take you up on it then. They're planning on quite a few indoor shows throughout the year so I may just get one and let it live in that piano. I'm also trying to talk them into a large curtain behind the stage area.

[Chris Hindle]

Thank you but there is only one more show this year (this Friday) and I'm going to rough it one more time. They will do more in the spring. I may take you up on it then. They're planning on quite a few indoor shows throughout the year so I may just get one and let it live in that piano. I'm also trying to talk them into a large curtain behind the stage area.

Wow. no curtain?
THAT will solve a world of reflection. Monitors bouncing off the back wall and into the audience for example.
Chris.

[Ed Hall]

One of my gigs has started doing indoor shows in a very live room with a grand piano.  It kind of hard to gain up mics. Is a Helpistill pickup system worth the price.? HAs anyone here used one?. Do they sound natural?

I was in a similar situation, a grand in a live room. It was the second loudest thing in the room, after the drum kit. I was always mixing the acoustic guitars and vocals up to the drums and piano. We had two 414s under the lid. All sorts of bleed issues and still too loud with it open. We installed a Helpinstill and closed the lid and it made a significant improvement. It did take some time playing with placement to get it right; but, worth the effort. I recommend it.

[Darin Ulmer]

We provide for a pianist (backed by an orchestra and singers) for a Christmas tour and have used the Helpinstill for around 12 years, being on a different concert piano each show.  Some things we have learned: first, placement is key, it is very easy to emulate a Rhodes and that is not what you want! Use three DI's instead of the little mixer so that you have better control over the instrument.  We purchased a second of the longer pickups because different pianos have different soundboard curves and getting the final few notes and transitions can be a challenge with the three that come in the package.  Plus, there must be a little overlap as the pickups do not work well in the final 3/4" or so. 

We also use a mic, usually on the second hole, (the pianist doesn't want any mics visible) and at FOH I use as much mic as possible, while the monitor is entirely the pickup.  (He likes it quite loud!)  The bass pickup is great, but overdone it will sound unnatural.  Also, watch out for thumps from the pumping of the sustain pedal being picked up by the Helpinstill.  Verb on the top two pickups, but not usually the bass.

The pickup provides for a lot of control and isolation, especially on busy numbers where the orchestra is going all out, but on solo numbers, where the monitors are muted, the mic provides a much more natural sound.

[Tim Weaver]

The only time I've heard a Helpinstill sound good was when Charlie "Ezra" Helpinstill played at my venue. He plays under the name Ezra Charles since he sold the name Helpinstill when he sold the patent.

Charlie had a 5 foot grand with his own pickup and the bottom two octaves were midi triggered so he could play bass with his left hand. All of this was perched on a turntable which he controlled with a foot pedal. He would always hire good looking female horn players out of the University of Texas' marching band. Guy knew how to put on a show, I can tell you that.

He'd sing a verse facing the audience, then spin around and watch the horn players take a ride, then spin back around and sing the chorus, etc. Always a fun time.

[Steven Cohen]

One of my gigs has started doing indoor shows in a very live room with a grand piano.  It kind of hard to gain up mics. Is a Helpistill pickup system worth the price.? HAs anyone here used one?. Do they sound natural?

DPA 4099Ps work in just about every situation for us. They deploy quickly, they sound natural, work with any lid position, and mostly "just work" without much fuss at the console.

Over the years, BEs have brought in C-Ducers, Helpistills, Large capsule condensers, small capsule condensers, etc. While some of these solutions worked, they took a long time to deploy, EQ, and some did not sound natural. The DPAs are the best solution we have used. The DPAs will work up to crazy loud stages. After that point, we use SM57s.   

[Kemper Watson]

DPA 4099Ps work in just about every situation for us. They deploy quickly, they sound natural, work with any lid position, and mostly "just work" without much fuss at the console.

Over the years, BEs have brought in C-Ducers, Helpistills, Large capsule condensers, small capsule condensers, etc. While some of these solutions worked, they took a long time to deploy, EQ, and some did not sound natural. The DPAs are the best solution we have used. The DPAs will work up to crazy loud stages. After that point, we use SM57s.

I can't afford DPA right now because I just bought an Earthworks kit. Will the DM 20's work as well?. I may try them next time. I was using C214.

[Riley Casey]

The Earthworks excel at high quality pick up of the source. They don't in my experience excel at high gain before feedback when compared to some other solutions but then I don't have as much experience with the purpose built Earthworks piano mic set up.

I can't afford DPA right now because I just bought an Earthworks kit. Will the DM 20's work as well?. I may try them next time. I was using C214.

[Kemper Watson]

Wow. no curtain?
THAT will solve a world of reflection. Monitors bouncing off the back wall and into the audience for example.
Chris.

I'm buying a backdrop before the next series of shows. 40 ft of fire rated velour pipe n drape

[Steven Cohen]

I can't afford DPA right now because I just bought an Earthworks kit. Will the DM 20's work as well?. I may try them next time. I was using C214.

I don't have any experience with the DM 20s but its worth trying.

One thing about the DPA 4099 series is that they are designed for many different types of instrument uses. The 4099 series comes is many different models with the main difference being the mounting type boom and bracket or magnet. They even have one for an accordion!

https://www.dpamicrophones.com/instrument/4099-instrument-microphone

A quick comparison of Earthworks PM40 (piano mic) and the DM20 (drum mic) shows two completely different mic capsule specifications. Not saying the DM 20 will not work on a grand piano, if just was not designed for that purpose. 

[Tim Weaver]

If the DPA's are out of budget, check out the ATM350 from AT. They are a very solid alternative to the DPA. The only thing is a higher self noise, or worse S/N ratio. But unless you really need to gain them up high you don't notice it. In a piano wouldn't be an issue. It's only an issue when you are trying to mic a mouse fart.

They also have a neat magnetic base which is awesome for the piano.

[ProSoundWeb Community]