ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source  (Read 5802 times)

Jeremy Young

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 493
    • Brown Bear Sound
Re: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2021, 10:28:07 PM »

You've mentioned SBIR a number of times but I'm not familiar with that terminology, can you tell me what it stands for? 

You asked about fills, they are to improve intelligibility.  Off-axis from the mains, you'll have less HF energy but the mids (being longer wavelengths and therefore the cabinet not having as much control of them) will be stronger.  So some small speakers with strong HF drivers could be used to "fill" the highs in the areas to the sides where teh mains would not be covering.  This would improve intelligibility, and in some cases could be used to allow you to aim teh mains in such a way as to avoid reflections from otherwise having a wide splay angle to cover those sides.   As others mentioned, those fills could be sent a separate mix from the mixer/DSP with a different blend of MC versus band to suit the needs of the zone. 

Another common application for fills is front-fills or lip-fills.  The seats in front of the stage may be outside the HF pattern of the mains, but still getting low-mids from the mains.  If the subs are on the floor, those front seats may have more bass than anywhere else in the room.  Front fills would be used to get that HF energy back in balance for those seats. 

With a live band for example, you may have far too much energy from the acoustic drums or guitar amps directly from the stage compared to the lesser volume of the vocals in that seat.  The front fills could be sent a mix from the mixer with a larger relative level of vocals to bring balance to that zone. 

that's the concept, but it requires speakers in the right places, driven off dedicated amp channels and DSP channels, and in many cases on separate mixers (usually a matrix) from the mixer.

Regarding wattage, a better question is how loud do you need it?  Speakers produce SPL.  Speaker sensitivities range, but a highly sensitive speaker will give you more SPL at less wattage than a less-sensitive one.  Distance from listeners to speakers will affect final SPL at the listeners; as will how much "headroom" you want to build into the system (so you can have some dynamic range to your mix). 

For monitors, I'd anticipate a minimum of 4-6 being required if you intend to have live bands; 1-2 would only really be suitable for smaller arrangements/duo's/corporate events etc.  Typically one monitor per performer. 

I have no idea what things cost in your country so I can't begin to speculate on what your budget can afford you, nor can I hazard a guess as to what products may or may not be readily available to you. 

You may or may not know this already, but since you do more home A/V than live sound, the mains will need to be ahead of (closer to the audience) the microphones on stage or you'll be fighting feedback.  The closer the speakers are to teh microphones, the more work you'll have to do to get decent gain before feedback.  The louder your intended final volume, the harder this will be.  This could be yet another reason for more than one speaker pair (lower volume speakers at the front, followed by another set of speakers halfway back with delay processing to time-align them to the mains). 

There's a lot to talk about, have you watched any of Nathan's videos yet? 
Logged
Brown Bear Sound
Victoria BC Canada
Live Events - Life Events - Corporate Events

Masis Ingilizian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Re: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2021, 03:44:03 AM »

You've mentioned SBIR a number of times but I'm not familiar with that terminology, can you tell me what it stands for? 
Speaker boundary interference, which I am realizing plays second fiddle to the feedback issue, two different problems tackled differently with feedback taking precedent. Although, larger venues will exhibit less SBIR but the closest boundary the front wall could still be an issue. I will fill up behind the front speakers with some bass trapping to tame SBIR so that issue should be under control.

Quote
You asked about fills, they are to improve intelligibility.  Off-axis from the mains, you'll have less HF energy but the mids (being longer wavelengths and therefore the cabinet not having as much control of them) will be stronger.  So some small speakers with strong HF drivers could be used to "fill" the highs in the areas to the sides where teh mains would not be covering.  This would improve intelligibility, and in some cases could be used to allow you to aim teh mains in such a way as to avoid reflections from otherwise having a wide splay angle to cover those sides.   As others mentioned, those fills could be sent a separate mix from the mixer/DSP with a different blend of MC versus band to suit the needs of the zone. 

Another common application for fills is front-fills or lip-fills.  The seats in front of the stage may be outside the HF pattern of the mains, but still getting low-mids from the mains.  If the subs are on the floor, those front seats may have more bass than anywhere else in the room.  Front fills would be used to get that HF energy back in balance for those seats. 

With a live band for example, you may have far too much energy from the acoustic drums or guitar amps directly from the stage compared to the lesser volume of the vocals in that seat.  The front fills could be sent a mix from the mixer with a larger relative level of vocals to bring balance to that zone.
 
All makes sense, very logical but implementing it would be the challenge.

Quote
that's the concept, but it requires speakers in the right places, driven off dedicated amp channels and DSP channels, and in many cases on separate mixers (usually a matrix) from the mixer.
Definitely look into these concepts.

Quote
Regarding wattage, a better question is how loud do you need it?  Speakers produce SPL.  Speaker sensitivities range, but a highly sensitive speaker will give you more SPL at less wattage than a less-sensitive one.  Distance from listeners to speakers will affect final SPL at the listeners; as will how much "headroom" you want to build into the system (so you can have some dynamic range to your mix).

Regarding headroom as much as I can manage. I am sure the audio engineer will have enough experience to recommend right power ratios for the given size. 

Quote
For monitors, I'd anticipate a minimum of 4-6 being required if you intend to have live bands; 1-2 would only really be suitable for smaller arrangements/duo's/corporate events etc.  Typically one monitor per performer.
 
Typically, it would be a 4 to 5 piece band but I will have to find out as at times there toned down depending on the venue. Your minimum requirement recommendation is appreciated.

Quote
I have no idea what things cost in your country so I can't begin to speculate on what your budget can afford you, nor can I hazard a guess as to what products may or may not be readily available to you.

Same as everywhere, maybe more expensive with around 30% tax for businesses which is slapped onto the consumer and for personal items 15% but in general its about the same as everywhere else. The audio engineer works with JBL and QSC with QSC looking more like a suitable option for now with there point source. 

Quote
You may or may not know this already, but since you do more home A/V than live sound, the mains will need to be ahead of (closer to the audience) the microphones on stage or you'll be fighting feedback.  The closer the speakers are to teh microphones, the more work you'll have to do to get decent gain before feedback.  The louder your intended final volume, the harder this will be.
Ha ha, I didn't and was discussing the best place for subs with the audio engineer and with my home A/V background I wanted front wall but he mentioned to reduce feedback the subs and mains need to be infront of the microphone.

Quote
This could be yet another reason for more than one speaker pair (lower volume speakers at the front, followed by another set of speakers halfway back with delay processing to time-align them to the mains).
This could work too.

]
Quote
There's a lot to talk about, have you watched any of Nathan's videos yet?
Yeh his great. And he uses REW quit a bit.
Logged

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6889
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2021, 04:19:55 AM »

Lets do it this way. This way I can get an idea of what a decent sounds system for PA costs so I can provide an overview to the owner. A step up from the JBL VRX would be ideal.

Pair of speakers will be at least 2k
Amplifier will be at least 1k and need 3, one for sub and two if I biamp the mains.
A mixer have no idea what a decent one costs for this appliciation.
Speaker management controller again about 1k depending how ths is implemented
A monitor at least one, $500
Minimum two subs again at least $500 each

What else am I missing?

Am I right in hazarding a guess at 10k which should give me good speakers and decent amps. Most PA amps don't have third party measurements so will never know what we are really getting so I wouldn't go all out on the amps

I am sure we can save on the 10k but is this about right?


The VRX's and QSC's KLA you would need 6 speakers, that's 12k right there.  Installation in that room is going to come close to 10k. 


VRX's are there own special awful as noted.  The QSC's, a solid brand and a quality speaker, the KLA is possibly one of the unimpressive things they have ever done.  They are mediocre but in a blah non-offensive way.  The JBL's you have to take a whip too and beat into submission.


Neither is the right gear for the room.  Is the architect been told what you want to hang from the ceiling?


I second that you need a few coverage zones and precision speakers that have exact pattern control.  This toeing and crossing and spraying sound around is the exact opposite of keeping that room under control.


Good luck.



Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Masis Ingilizian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Re: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2021, 05:14:00 AM »


The VRX's and QSC's KLA you would need 6 speakers, that's 12k right there.  Installation in that room is going to come close to 10k. 

VRX's are there own special awful as noted.  The QSC's, a solid brand and a quality speaker, the KLA is possibly one of the unimpressive things they have ever done.  They are mediocre but in a blah non-offensive way.  The JBL's you have to take a whip too and beat into submission.

Neither is the right gear for the room. 

When you say neither gear is right for the room do you mean the fact that it is line array? I was thinking a point source with something like a 90 or slightly less horizontal coverage. What would be your recommendation in terms of brand and model for the room...? Of course I will do further research but perhaps a recommendation willnot only point me in the right direction it will help in making me understand why that option might be best for that room.

Quote
Is the architect been told what you want to hang from the ceiling?

I have discused this with the audio engineer but not yet with the owner or architects. I will try and avoid hanging but even with a point source it seems the second coverage zones will need to be hung from the ceiling. The audio engineer and think it would be best but it all comes down to budget, we will recommend the best set up and then its up to the owner to decide.

Quote
I second that you need a few coverage zones and precision speakers that have exact pattern control.  This toeing and crossing and spraying sound around is the exact opposite of keeping that room under control.

Thanks for your opinion about the coverage zones I will discuss it further with the audio engineer. But can you just confirm what you mean by exact opposite of what needs to be done to keep it under control. So essentially what needs to be done to keep the room under control? I think this will help untangle some of the confusion.

Logged

Masis Ingilizian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Re: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2021, 05:16:06 AM »

Manufacturer EAW makes several products in their “adaptive series” lineup that do what I described.  Check their website for further reading.

I was randomly reading some of there articles, pity I closed the tab. I will find it again.
Logged

Masis Ingilizian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Re: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2021, 05:16:41 AM »

Here's one: Beam Steering article, a search on "beam steering arrray" or "beam steering loudspeaker" should get you lots of hits too.

Cheers,
David.

Yes will take a look. Thanks.
Logged

David Sturzenbecher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1933
  • So. Dak.
    • Sturz Audio
Re: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2021, 12:57:32 PM »


I have discused this with the audio engineer but not yet with the owner or architects. I will try and avoid hanging but even with a point source it seems the second coverage zones will need to be hung from the ceiling. The audio engineer and think it would be best but it all comes down to budget, we will recommend the best set up and then its up to the owner to decide.


You will want to hang those main speakers… see point 5 in the attached link.

https://www.vipproductionnw.com/blog/proper-speaker-placement


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Logged
Audio Systems Design Engineer
Daktronics, Inc.
CTS-D, CTS-I
AES Full Member

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6889
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2021, 08:08:42 PM »

When you say neither gear is right for the room do you mean the fact that it is line array? I was thinking a point source with something like a 90 or slightly less horizontal coverage. What would be your recommendation in terms of brand and model for the room...? Of course I will do further research but perhaps a recommendation willnot only point me in the right direction it will help in making me understand why that option might be best for that room.

I have discused this with the audio engineer but not yet with the owner or architects. I will try and avoid hanging but even with a point source it seems the second coverage zones will need to be hung from the ceiling. The audio engineer and think it would be best but it all comes down to budget, we will recommend the best set up and then its up to the owner to decide.

Thanks for your opinion about the coverage zones I will discuss it further with the audio engineer. But can you just confirm what you mean by exact opposite of what needs to be done to keep it under control. So essentially what needs to be done to keep the room under control? I think this will help untangle some of the confusion.


Neither of those systems are line arrays, that's been pointed out to you a couple of times, they are a constant curvature array.  Not the correct solution for the room.


Why would you avoid hanging?  Safely flying the speakers is exactly what you want to do.  That is a lovely room, I can't believe that they want to do ground stacked PA on a budget. 


A recommendation would require a design.  Has the audio engineer proposed a design?  Does it have performance specifications of how it will work in that room not just a repeat of the specs off the manufacturers cut sheets? 


90 degrees, no I can't imagine that would be a successful design.  You want narrow pattern speakers, that have real pattern control, vendors such as Danley, Martin and Fulcrum all make these types of speakers.  EAW might still too.  You want to put the sound where the people are, not bounce it around the room. 


That's why I mentioned the design, by the engineer.  You start with performance goals from the system, then you use tools to model the room and design the system to achieve the stated goals.


Is that clearer?



Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Masis Ingilizian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Re: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2021, 02:28:01 AM »


Neither of those systems are line arrays, that's been pointed out to you a couple of times, they are a constant curvature array.  Not the correct solution for the room.

Why would you avoid hanging?  Safely flying the speakers is exactly what you want to do.  That is a lovely room, I can't believe that they want to do ground stacked PA on a budget. 

A recommendation would require a design.  Has the audio engineer proposed a design?  Does it have performance specifications of how it will work in that room not just a repeat of the specs off the manufacturers cut sheets? 

90 degrees, no I can't imagine that would be a successful design.  You want narrow pattern speakers, that have real pattern control, vendors such as Danley, Martin and Fulcrum all make these types of speakers.  EAW might still too.  You want to put the sound where the people are, not bounce it around the room. 

That's why I mentioned the design, by the engineer.  You start with performance goals from the system, then you use tools to model the room and design the system to achieve the stated goals.

Is that clearer?

Yes, thank you it makes things much clearer. And my mistake about calling them line arrays, I understand the difference and there constant curvature array.

Yes, most of the evidence is pointing that line array and constant curvature design is not the best solution for this room.

After reading a little I see that there are major benefits from hanging and haning the side fill speaker will also really give good coverage with good pattern control without too much overlap. It seems overlap is something you want to avoid. I am not necessarily avoiding hanging the speakers it just depends on simplicity but obviously from your input it seems hanging will make a ton of difference so I should push for it.

Like I mentioned, the audio engineer has experience and seems like he knows what his talking but in terms of proposing a design and how accurate that design will be, or how it will correspond to the room might be out of his capability. But after everything mentioned in this forum coupled with all that I am learning about PA both the audio engineer and I will have to put our heads together and come up with a solution. He is not clueless and can manage speaker management control so  will chat to him about side speakers, seperate matrix, different volumes and delays etc.

I do not know how effective Ease Focus is to simulate speaker splay and understand about the room, I know how to use it but perhaps not to its fullest extent. If I should perceiver on that program let me know? Unless there is another free software that should be learnt please recommend...?

Yes with more than 2 speakers I get why 90 degree horizontal will be too wide, and I understand about real pattern control. I myself have a horn speaker at home and although I am an amateur about understanding the minimum horn loading or loss of higher frequency control with a narrower control pattern I know enough to know its importance of it and how it will effect the direct sound and speech intelligibility to the audience. I know a little about those bands, have come across heaps about Danley and all the abovementioned sights have decent educational articles.

I get this feeling QSC is decent, well they have to be cause there no amateur in waveguide technology themselves but it seems there are better options like the brands you mention above.

Regarding sound bouncing around a room, to be honest I am pro reflections but I think that only relates to small room acoustics and for large venues direct sound takes precedent coupled with the natural reverberation of the room of course a decent reverb time that is. So the goal would be to control reflections and aim direct sound to where its needed hence the choice of the right pattern and accurate production of frequencies within that specified pattern.

I will discuss the performance goals with the engineer, we have two types of music played at weddings and both usually need two different style systems, one slighlty more aggressive while if the music is more traditional something more smoother. He seems to understand this, plus of course general design criteria which we will discuss. You mention tools to model? IS Ease focus any good? Any other recommendations? 

Last question is simple but I would love to know more about why overlapping is not good and how it should be done on the PA sphere of things that is, not home audio or basic lobing issues unless it the same thing. More on what can and shouldn't overlap with 2 or more speakers in a venue type thing. Any links?

Logged

Matthias McCready

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 518
Re: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2021, 12:51:22 PM »


Last question is simple but I would love to know more about why overlapping is not good and how it should be done on the PA sphere of things that is, not home audio or basic lobing issues unless it the same thing. More on what can and shouldn't overlap with 2 or more speakers in a venue type thing. Any links?

Two suggestions:

1) Hire a designer who knows room acoustics and how to use Ease (or a manufacturer mapping software) to find the right rig for your room, rather than "brand x." This isn't stuff you want to guess on; and with the software available today the good news is that you don't need to guess. To the point it is a real bummer to install new system, and realize on day one that is does not work well for the room. I have been there before, and it is quite frustrating.

2) If you are absolutely determined to do this project yourself, put things on pause, and purchase "Sound System Design and Optimization" by Bob McCarthy. I think you have enough background knowledge that some study of this book could net you a great deal of insight.
Logged
Measure twice, and cut once; this is especially important if you are a mohel.

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2021, 12:51:22 PM »


Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.079 seconds with 22 queries.