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Author Topic: Looming IATSE strike  (Read 4657 times)

Randy Pence

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Re: Looming IATSE strike
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2021, 09:06:36 AM »

In a nutshell, stage rates are ultimately set roughly as a function of what the market will bear for live events, the revenue from which is inherently constrained by the capacity of a venue (any venue). When a commercial recording is being made those constraints suddenly no longer apply, which means that one of the big assumptions that under-girds how those rates are set also no longer applies.

As an extreme example, look at the recent Disney+ release of "Hamilton". A good portion of the footage used in the release was captured during a couple of normal live performances. The technicians involved likely didn't do any extra work during those performances, but for those couple of shows that work was suddenly visible to an audience that was several orders in magnitude larger, with a similarly-larger revenue base. The audience size limitations inherent in the venue that normally exist simply didn't for those performances, and to me the change in the nature of the product's valuation requires a change in the expectations of the wages being paid to those producing it.

-Russ

Why the changes in expectations? Does the crew do a better job only if the product is to be archived? Is the crew being paid for their time or the end product?
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Looming IATSE strike
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2021, 10:38:25 AM »

Why the changes in expectations? Does the crew do a better job only if the product is to be archived? Is the crew being paid for their time or the end product?

The crew is being paid to create the end product that is delivered to the audience.

Mac
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Randy Pence

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Re: Looming IATSE strike
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2021, 01:20:52 PM »

The crew is being paid to create the end product that is delivered to the audience.

Mac

So in effect the crew is getting paid to present a mix to the live audience and capture the board channels for the smaller group of people to listen to the multi-track and the issue is whether pressing record is worth 10k? I would still understand the multi-track to be a separate product than whatever gets released for mass consumption. Are there examples in other industries where the potential of a further refined product is enough for negotiation of higher labor compensation? I'm all for safer workplaces, better pay, etc, but can see dying on this hill as way to push bigger productions to venues where different contracts are in place. The artists at the level where this kind of thing would be an issue could just as well do their recording gigs with extra video and lighting ops in Europe and the consumers won't care.
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Russell Ault

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Re: Looming IATSE strike
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2021, 03:51:30 PM »

{...} Are there examples in other industries where the potential of a further refined product is enough for negotiation of higher labor compensation? {...}

Let's me try something: instead of "refinement", let's think of this in terms of "durability".

For a lot of products, a significant factor in the price of the product (as well as the effort associated with production) is related durability, and we generally expect to be charged more for an item that will last longer.

In our industry, the default assumption is that our work is of infinitely low durability, because a live performance only exists as long as it's actually happening, and it ceases to exist when the performance ends. Stage labour contracts are negotiated, in part, on the basis of that transience (and the resulting inherent economic limitations).

When a performance is recorded, it immediately swings from being the most transient thing possible to one of the most permanent things possible. Where much of our current conversation arises is that, unlike in most industries, this substantial increase in durability doesn't necessarily require a substantial increase in effort. Either way, though, the nature of the product, and therefore the work being done to produce it (which, historically, was the creation of an entirely transient product) is fundamentally changed in a way that is almost unique to our industry.

-Russ
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Randy Pence

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Re: Looming IATSE strike
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2021, 05:56:04 PM »

Let's me try something: instead of "refinement", let's think of this in terms of "durability".

For a lot of products, a significant factor in the price of the product (as well as the effort associated with production) is related durability, and we generally expect to be charged more for an item that will last longer.

In our industry, the default assumption is that our work is of infinitely low durability, because a live performance only exists as long as it's actually happening, and it ceases to exist when the performance ends. Stage labour contracts are negotiated, in part, on the basis of that transience (and the resulting inherent economic limitations).

When a performance is recorded, it immediately swings from being the most transient thing possible to one of the most permanent things possible. Where much of our current conversation arises is that, unlike in most industries, this substantial increase in durability doesn't necessarily require a substantial increase in effort. Either way, though, the nature of the product, and therefore the work being done to produce it (which, historically, was the creation of an entirely transient product) is fundamentally changed in a way that is almost unique to our industry.

-Russ

Performances have been recorded since as long as there have been portable tape recorders, so I'm not sure what has fundamentally changed. Literally the entire audience could decide to record the performance. How are those recordings less durable than board feeds or digital multi-tracks?

Stage labor also has as much to do with those recordings as security, food and drink vendors, etc once the show starts. The work was already done to get the signal from stage to FOH, where an artist supplied A1 connects a usb cable to a laptop and records, right?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Looming IATSE strike
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2021, 07:07:01 PM »

This whole discussion of "commercial use" pay is a red herring.

The "looming strike" has to do with video / TV/ film productions that are negotiating in bad faith for wages, benefits, safety, and residual pay from streaming comparable to established contracts.
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Steve-White

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Re: Looming IATSE strike
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2021, 07:18:47 PM »

This whole discussion of "commercial use" pay is a red herring.

The "looming strike" has to do with video / TV/ film productions that are negotiating in bad faith for wages, benefits, safety, and residual pay from streaming comparable to established contracts.

Which rightfully pays royalties to artist(s) and producer - a fair and equitable agreement needs to be reached in such a case for the technical staff as well.
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Russell Ault

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Re: Looming IATSE strike
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2021, 11:33:27 PM »

This whole discussion of "commercial use" pay is a red herring.
{...}

On this forum, I think I would have described a lengthy discussion on a subject that is only tangentially related to the OP's topic as simply "business as usual". ;D

{...} Literally the entire audience could decide to record the performance. How are those recordings less durable than board feeds or digital multi-tracks? {...}

Bootleg recordings are plenty durable, which is why most performers restrict/prohibit their creation.

{...}
Stage labor also has as much to do with those recordings as security, food and drink vendors, etc once the show starts. The work was already done to get the signal from stage to FOH, where an artist supplied A1 connects a usb cable to a laptop and records, right?

Stage labour is a niche, though. Security, food and drink, etc., all typically have significant (perhaps even primary) markets outside of the performing arts. The pay for a security guard (for example) is going to be determined on the basis of a much deeper market (even if a particular company has chosen to specialize in event security, pivoting to a broader market wouldn't be particularly difficult), while the pay for a stagehand is determined on the basis of the much, much smaller live entertainment market. Live entertainment has (as mentioned) inherent revenue constraints, and the wages are thus also inherently constrained. When those revenue constraints no longer apply (as happens when a commercial recording is made of an otherwise-transient live performance), the constraints on wages shouldn't, either (and is one of the reasons why, as Eric mentioned, film production technicians tend to be paid better than live event technicians).

-Russ
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Eric Snodgrass

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Re: Looming IATSE strike
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2021, 09:40:36 PM »

Performances have been recorded since as long as there have been portable tape recorders, so I'm not sure what has fundamentally changed. Literally the entire audience could decide to record the performance. How are those recordings less durable than board feeds or digital multi-tracks?

Stage labor also has as much to do with those recordings as security, food and drink vendors, etc once the show starts. The work was already done to get the signal from stage to FOH, where an artist supplied A1 connects a usb cable to a laptop and records, right?
I think in this discussion there might be a bit of a disconnect between the examples given (Hamilton filming of live performances) and a simple board recording, as you imply with your example. 
Archival stereo and multitrack recordings happen all the time at all levels of performance.  I believe there is a fundamental difference between a bar/club band recording their performance and artists recording performances for promotion/commercial use at mid-to-upper level venues.  At these mid-to-upper level venues there is a box office split between performers, promoters and venues (typically 70-30 in favor of the performers at higher end venues) where at the club/bar level there isn't as much of a split, if any, of box office.  At that level a lot of clubs are even pay-to-play for the performers. 
Performers who play these upper level venues and can generate thousands or tens-of-thousands of ticket sales per night are already profiting handsomely per performance.  When they decide to do live recordings of the performances their profit potential increases exponentially because the recording can reach an exponentially larger audience.  These performers don't just do a board recording, so it's not just a matter of simply adding a "record" button to the labor.  Recording rigs, recording trucks, extra power, cabling, splits, microphones and crew people all come into play for these recordings.  Union wages go up (a bit) when this happens because there is extra work involved with this presentation and recording.  Also, other workers normally involved in recordings such as studio technicians, other live-event recording IATSE Locals (such as 695) as well as the costs of studio time for recording, are no longer cost factors.  Stagehand IATSE Locals aren't in the business of competing with those other fellow IATSE Locals by providing cheaper labor than those Locals for recordings, so wages do go up partly as a way to level the wage gap created by the absence of the other IATSE Locals.
I do believe that the large venues might even have a recording fee built into their contracts with the performers/promoters so that they are compensated for the commercial use of their venue beyond a single night of performances.  For example, The Hollywood Bowl name carries weight given its history, so performers wanting to record performances at that venue will also want to use that venue name to help sell the recording.  So the venue decides what that name is worth for the promotional use of a recording. 
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: PENDING IATSE strike
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2021, 04:14:33 PM »

The affected Locals voted overwhelmingly to authorize IATSE President Loeb to call a strike.  More here:

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-09-30/iatse-matt-loeb-strike-authorization-vote-hollywood-labor-amptp

Note this is not about commercial use of venues presenting concerts....
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

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Re: PENDING IATSE strike
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2021, 04:14:33 PM »


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