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[Tim Hite]

Reading about IATSE Locals in film and TV being on the verge of a strike form a lot of places.

Curious if that will shut down the live event side of IATSE, as well, if it happens.

Any insights? I am not at all familiar with how this all works. Seems crappy that the film and TV people who have been working for months would strike now that events are coming back on line.

[Tim McCulloch]

Reading about IATSE Locals in film and TV being on the verge of a strike form a lot of places.

Curious if that will shut down the live event side of IATSE, as well, if it happens.

Any insights? I am not at all familiar with how this all works. Seems crappy that the film and TV people who have been working for months would strike now that events are coming back on line.

No. Work stoppages and picket lines are used with individual employers.

Some members of other unions will not cross a picket line (Teamsters are a good example).

But shutting down productions with unsafe or unfair employers will not create a work stoppage with other employers or in other segments of the represented crafts and trades.

Edit ps:  it seems the big issue involves "new media", streaming, and other forms of product distribution and how to fairly compensate workers.  This WILL have live event implications as many *stage department* Locals have hourly or lump sum commercial rate bonuses in their contracts.  Depending on how those contracts are written that could be some serious money that *somebody* has to pay.  Who benefits from the new media?  Not the event promoter, but that's who typically pays the local labor bill... I think we'll be seeing commercial rates being recovered from the artist/management at settlement.

[Al Rettich]

I toured with a band that would record then sell my house mix. There were a couple of times that the IATSE would come up and say that there was a $10,000 recording fee if you were selling it. I've always wondered, do they split that $10,000 up between the people that worked the show, or is it just some money that would go into their account to finance other things.

No. Work stoppages and picket lines are used with individual employers.

Some members of other unions will not cross a picket line (Teamsters are a good example).

But shutting down productions with unsafe or unfair employers will not create a work stoppage with other employers or in other segments of the represented crafts and trades.

Edit ps:  it seems the big issue involves "new media", streaming, and other forms of product distribution and how to fairly compensate workers.  This WILL have live event implications as many *stage department* Locals have hourly or lump sum commercial rate bonuses in their contracts.  Depending on how those contracts are written that could be some serious money that *somebody* has to pay.  Who benefits from the new media?  Not the event promoter, but that's who typically pays the local labor bill... I think we'll be seeing commercial rates being recovered from the artist/management at settlement.

[Tim McCulloch]

I toured with a band that would record then sell my house mix. There were a couple of times that the IATSE would come up and say that there was a $10,000 recording fee if you were selling it. I've always wondered, do they split that $10,000 up between the people that worked the show, or is it just some money that would go into their account to finance other things.

In the contracts my Local has, the additional commercial use hourly bonus goes directly to the workers with the Local receiving its standard work referral fee on total wages earned.  IIRC the bonus is $5/hr straight time, $7.50/hr for premium or overtime rates.

I cannot speak to the situation you describe as I'm not familiar with the contract or the Local involved.  You can call the Local's business agent and ask; they're typically happy to explain rates and policies.

[Andrew Broughton]

There were a couple of times that the IATSE would come up and say that there was a $10,000 recording fee if you were selling it.

I've known about this as well, it's been a "policy" forever. How on earth did this policy ever come to be, since there is no additional work being done on their part?

"Hey - You're doing something that MIGHT make you more money. Where's my cut?" Like it's some sort of bank robbery or something. This is what it comes across as at least...

[Scott Helmke]

I've known about this as well, it's been a "policy" forever. How on earth did this policy ever come to be, since there is no additional work being done on their part?

"Hey - You're doing something that MIGHT make you more money. Where's my cut?" Like it's some sort of bank robbery or something. This is what it comes across as at least...

I'm not sure I totally understand it either, but what if it was a situation where you were the FOH mixer and a concert recording ended up as a commercial release?  Would you feel like your work was being unfairly used for someone else's commercial gain?

[Andrew Broughton]

I'm not sure I totally understand it either, but what if it was a situation where you were the FOH mixer and a concert recording ended up as a commercial release?  Would you feel like your work was being unfairly used for someone else's commercial gain?

Unfairly used? Depends on your contract. Most state that anything that comes from the work that you've done while employed becomes the employer's property.

Different scenario though. The crew are paid to do the job they're hired for, pushing boxes, hanging lights, etc. They aren't designing or creating anything, they are just following orders, and they're being paid for it. If the producer happens to make more money, they don't have a "right" to that. Or to put it another way, if the producer loses money, would the crew be up for a pay cut?

However, I expect this policy may not directly relate to how much money the producer is making, but something else that nobody has explained to me thus far...

[Russell Ault]

{...}
However, I expect this policy may not directly relate to how much money the producer is making, but something else that nobody has explained to me thus far...

Without getting too deep into the weeds of economic theory, it's typically less about the employer "making more money" and more about their potential to make more money. Wages are always going to be negotiated, at least in part, on basis of the revenue-generating potential of the activities being undertaken (so, for example, there are plenty of locals whose commercial rates for large rock shows are half again or more what someone dispatched to a small not-for-profit theatre will make, even if the work at the latter is more complicated), and, at least in theory, selling the recording of a performance has the potential to drastically increase its revenue (since the audience size ceases to be limited by the capacity of the venue).

-Russ 

[Andrew Broughton]

Without getting too deep into the weeds of economic theory, it's typically less about the employer "making more money" and more about their potential to make more money. Wages are always going to be negotiated, at least in part, on basis of the revenue-generating potential of the activities being undertaken (so, for example, there are plenty of locals whose commercial rates for large rock shows are half again or more what someone dispatched to a small not-for-profit theatre will make, even if the work at the latter is more complicated), and, at least in theory, selling the recording of a performance has the potential to drastically increase its revenue (since the audience size ceases to be limited by the capacity of the venue).

-Russ 

Still makes no sense. Pay for a casual work job should have no relationship to the profitability of the event. Why should it? Are you suggesting that the crew's rate for a theater show at $50 per seat should where the promoter loses money be less than the rate for an arena show at $250 per seat where the promoter makes a few million?


Any time I've gotten quotes from the IA, it's $x per hour for a rigger, $x for a forklift driver, etc. The type of event never enters into it, just the type of work. Anyway, why should the type or profitability of the event be a factor at all for the crew? This job = this pay, or "hire me, this is my rate".
This "pay me more if you record the show, even though it changes my work not one iota" is very strange indeed.

[Russell Ault]

{...} Are you suggesting that the crew's rate for a theater show at $50 per seat should where the promoter loses money be less than the rate for an arena show at $250 per seat where the promoter makes a few million? {...}

I'm not suggesting "should"; I'm stating "is". Even in my local the commercial rate sheet pays better than most of our venue agreements (although I'm told the difference is smaller than in other locals).

{...}
Any time I've gotten quotes from the IA, it's $x per hour for a rigger, $x for a forklift driver, etc. The type of event never enters into it, just the type of work. Anyway, why should the type or profitability of the event be a factor at all for the crew? This job = this pay, or "hire me, this is my rate".
This "pay me more if you record the show, even though it changes my work not one iota" is very strange indeed.

In most locals, if you call and asked to be dispatched labour, the price you'll be quoted is from the commercial rate sheet, but venues with negotiated agreements often have different rates. For one-offs the cost of negotiations will outweigh the benefits, so everyone gets the same rate sheet regardless of event size.

As for why profitability matters, bear in mind that one of the goals of organized labour is to ensure workers are "fairly" compensated, which means both "fairly with regard to the effort involved" and "fairly with regard to the profits being made". Professional sports players could live comfortable on six figures, but a lot of them make seven or eight because (a) it's what the market is willing to bear and (b) their unions makes sure a significant portion of the profits of the sport are paid to the players instead of just the team owners.

-Russ

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