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[Milt Hathaway]

I have not heard so much as a peep for why others got the vaccine, other than they just did. I am wearing my ideas on my shoulder ( making me an easy target for argument and retort ), while others just say I'm wrong with little or no actual data to support it. You want to tour in your band, the Gov't says you have to be vaccinated to travel, so you get vaccinated to travel. That has nothing to do with protecting others, it only has to do with your own personal interests.

My personal interest is to not become a vector for any existing or developing form of the virus. As with most others here, I deal with a new crowd of people almost every day. I choose not to become a welcome breeding ground for SARS-CoV-2 or any of its variants. I choose not to be an easy conduit for the virus to transfer from one group of people to another. Yes, these are ultimately selfish thoughts. I want to continue the career I've become accustomed to. The fact that by being vaccinated I am helping others by reducing the efficacy of the virus is a bonus I accept with pleasure. But ultimately yes, I am concerned for myself and the family I come home to.

At no point has any venue, employer, or client required me to be vaccinated.

The only thing I can lay on heavily at the moment is that 75% of Americans are fully vaccinated and we are still seeing a rise in cases.

Your 75% figure is wrong. Less than 65% of Americans have gotten the first dose. And we're seeing a rise in cases most likely because less than 1% of children under 12 years old have gotten any dose, and we're cramming them together in schools where they often are not required to do anything to hamper the spread of Covid-19. Then we send them back to their families to share. Over and over again.

https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/

[Jim McKeveny]

I choose not to become a welcome breeding ground for SARS-CoV-2 or any of its variants. I choose not to be an easy conduit for the virus to transfer from one group of people to another.

Yes, these are ultimately selfish thoughts.

This is not selfish. This is for common good, of which you are a wise part.

[Bill Hornibrook]

I have not heard so much as a peep for why others got the vaccine, other than they just did.

I personally know co-owners of a transport business who - in spite of being right wing and solidly "my body my choice" on FB - are vaccinated themselves. When talking to them, they just can't take the chance of getting really sick because of the damage it would do to their business. Without that responsibility, they wouldn't have done it.

The club I'm involved with has around 16 employees. With the recent illness of two more bartenders, all who are unvaccinated have now gotten Covid. In spite of being around the same people in the same environment, those of us who are vaccinated have not.

Maybe we're just lucky.

As for me, I'm not pressing my luck with this one. I got my 3rd booster yesterday. Same reasons as my friends in the transport business.

[Russell Ault]

{...} I have not heard so much as a peep for why others got the vaccine, other than they just did. {...}

Fair point! Here's my reasoning, approximately in order of importance:

• I wanted to reduce my chances of getting severely ill and/or dying (which vaccines, particularly the mRNA vaccines, have been demonstrated to do, even against Delta)
• I wanted to reduce my chances of becoming infected and then getting other people infected (because if I don't get infected I can't infect someone else)
• The demonstrated, increased risks associated with the vaccines (again, particularly the mRNA vaccines) are substantially outweighed their demonstrated benefits (something along the lines of a bookie offering a bet with 1:99 odds but a 9:1 payout)

In truth, as relieved as I felt when I got my shot, my greatest feelings of relief came the day my wife got hers. She was the one I was most likely to pass the virus on to if I had someone gotten infected, so her getting vaccinated meant that my chances of accidentally killing her with COVID-19 dropped to practically nothing.

{...} Let's use prophylactics as a measure. If option a has 99.99% odds of preventing pregnancy and option B has 75% odds of preventing pregnancy, which option do you choose? {...}

Typically both (although, to be clear, masking and social distancing isn't nearly 99.99% effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 transmission, especially indoors).

{...} In the case of covid, you have what is measuring out to be roughly a 1% chance of death. You almost literally have a 99% chance of survival with no outside assistance. So 50% better odds only improve your outcome to 99.5%, and 75% better odds only increases your chance of survival to 99.75%. Or something like that... {...}

Your math is right, but your understanding of how probability works isn't. In probability, going from 99% to 99.75% is a massive difference.

If the chances of survival without vaccination are 99%, this means that 1% of people who get infected will die. If a vaccine reduces the likelihood of death by even 50% to produce a survival rate of 99.5%, suddenly only 0.5% of people who get infected will die. If you spread these percentages across the population of the United States, the unvaccinated scenario would result in the deaths of ~3.3 million Americans, while the vaccinated scenario would result in only ~1.7 million deaths (or ~1.6 million fewer than the unvaccinated scenario).

Of course, the real numbers are even more stark: even against Delta, the vaccine is at least 99% effective at preventing death, which increases the survival rate to at least 99.99%. This means that 0.01% will still die, but across the American population this would drop the total number of deaths from ~3.3 million to only ~33,000 people; that's literally 3+ million lives saved. And all this is just for deaths; the vaccines have similar (although lower) effectiveness as preventing infection, illness, and serious illness as well.

-Russ

[Dave Garoutte]

Fair point! Here's my reasoning, approximately in order of importance:

• I wanted to reduce my chances of getting severely ill and/or dying (which vaccines, particularly the mRNA vaccines, have been demonstrated to do, even against Delta)
• I wanted to reduce my chances of becoming infected and then getting other people infected (because if I don't get infected I can't infect someone else)
• The demonstrated, increased risks associated with the vaccines (again, particularly the mRNA vaccines) are substantially outweighed their demonstrated benefits (something along the lines of a bookie offering a bet with 1:99 odds but a 9:1 payout)

In truth, as relieved as I felt when I got my shot, my greatest feelings of relief came the day my wife got hers. She was the one I was most likely to pass the virus on to if I had someone gotten infected, so her getting vaccinated meant that my chances of accidentally killing her with COVID-19 dropped to practically nothing.

Typically both (although, to be clear, masking and social distancing isn't nearly 99.99% effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 transmission, especially indoors).

Your math is right, but your understanding of how probability works isn't. In probability, going from 99% to 99.75% is a massive difference.

If the chances of survival without vaccination are 99%, this means that 1% of people who get infected will die. If a vaccine reduces the likelihood of death by even 50% to produce a survival rate of 99.5%, suddenly only 0.5% of people who get infected will die. If you spread these percentages across the population of the United States, the unvaccinated scenario would result in the deaths of ~3.3 million Americans, while the vaccinated scenario would result in only ~1.7 million deaths (or ~1.6 million fewer than the unvaccinated scenario).

Of course, the real numbers are even more stark: even against Delta, the vaccine is at least 99% effective at preventing death, which increases the survival rate to at least 99.99%. This means that 0.01% will still die, but across the American population this would drop the total number of deaths from ~3.3 million to only ~33,000 people; that's literally 3+ million lives saved. And all this is just for deaths; the vaccines have similar (although lower) effectiveness as preventing infection, illness, and serious illness as well.

-Russ

Death is not the only bad thing that happens with this virus. Known (and unknown?) long-term health effects are also on the table.  Many pretty severe.

[Stephen Swaffer]

Of course, the real numbers are even more stark: even against Delta, the vaccine is at least 99% effective at preventing death, which increases the survival rate to at least 99.99%. This means that 0.01% will still die, but across the American population this would drop the total number of deaths from ~3.3 million to only ~33,000 people; that's literally 3+ million lives saved. And all this is just for deaths; the vaccines have similar (although lower) effectiveness as preventing infection, illness, and serious illness as well.

Given those numbers, why are the vaccinated so anti-unvaccinated?  It would seem they have eliminated their risk almost completely?  From a production standpoint, if you are concerned and get the vaccination what real fear should you have of jumping in and running production?  As I mentioned earlier-especially for those outside your crew, social distancing by the CDC guidelines is relatively easy.

I have installed devices to kill viruses in air handlers at my day job-to help mitigate spread.  Given what we know about how the vaccines work-and given others mentioned to do as much as possible to minimize transmission, why is this not a mainstream consideration?  It would seem a logical next step to making indoor entertainment more inviting to more patrons.

I really do understand vaccinations-I was against antivaxxers pre-pandemic.  Reason?  Many have forgotten the terrors of measles, polio, mumps and other outbreaks-which are controlled with vaccines that are a known quantity.  But there is still the issue of individual choice.

[Jim McKeveny]

  But there is still the issue of individual choice.

There is not. Individual(s) may choose to open the jet door at 20,000 ft., but the passenger/pilot group has decided otherwise.

The house must always win in the aggregate or there is no casino.

Kapish?

[Tim McCulloch]

Given those numbers, why are the vaccinated so anti-unvaccinated?  It would seem they have eliminated their risk almost completely?  From a production standpoint, if you are concerned and get the vaccination what real fear should you have of jumping in and running production?  As I mentioned earlier-especially for those outside your crew, social distancing by the CDC guidelines is relatively easy.

I have installed devices to kill viruses in air handlers at my day job-to help mitigate spread.  Given what we know about how the vaccines work-and given others mentioned to do as much as possible to minimize transmission, why is this not a mainstream consideration?  It would seem a logical next step to making indoor entertainment more inviting to more patrons.

I really do understand vaccinations-I was against antivaxxers pre-pandemic.  Reason?  Many have forgotten the terrors of measles, polio, mumps and other outbreaks-which are controlled with vaccines that are a known quantity.  But there is still the issue of individual choice.

I've told this story before... but when I was about 4 or 5 years old and not wanting my school shots my grandparents took me to their small town hospital and showed me the "now vacant" iron lung.  I didn't understand what it did or why it was a big piece of hospital equipment but I still recall their look of concern that I or anyone's child might end up in such a machine.  Sadly we've gotten to the point that people will believe fraudulent social media posts, doctors practicing outside their specialty, or politicians with division to be sown.  The psychological manipulation they are subjected to makes scientific truths and realities easily denied when those do not conform to the mis/disinformation that has taken prevalence over common sense.

But remembering my grandmother's eyes and the plaintive look on her face - I knew I had to take my shots.  I still didn't want them (and still don't like shots) but I *knew* that to not do so meant disappointing my grandparents.  And grandparents are sooo much cooler than mom and dad, right?  Couldn't let them down...

Steven, the issue has become "what makes a political statement" rather than "what gives me, my family, and my community a better chance of more safely returning to near-2019 life, sooner?" for too many.  For the folks who are medically ineligible to take the vaccine, it's important that the rest of us practice better infection control and that means our vaccination, hand hygiene, keeping respectful distancing, and wearing masks for the time being.  Mr Rogers would approve, I think.

[Stephen Swaffer]

Two separate issues here.  One is, should I get the vaccine?  If I refuse that is taken as a political statement.  Fair enough-won't argue the politics here.

Second issue-returning to "normal in production".  According to Russ's numbers, if EVERY single person in America contracted covid and EVERY person in America was vaccinated, approximately 30,000 would die-roughly the same number as will die in an auto accident in the next 12 months in the US.  I would argue if you ever get in a vehicle on a road next year your chances of dying are the same as if you contract covid if you are vaccinated.  Regardless of what I do, why would you hesitate to go back to normal production if you are vaccinated?  How often do you actually decline to get in a motor vehicle because of the risk involved?  Of course, that doesn't mean it's OK for me to drive impaired, or reckless-and that is a fair argument for vaccinations (if they guaranteed I could not infect you I would say), nor does that mean we shouldn't work to minimize the risk- but that doesn't keep you off the road.

[Tim McCulloch]

And sometimes the concept of "choice" is illusory....

Received an hour ago...


-----Original Message-----
From: AAAAAAAAAAAA>
Cc: BBBBBBBBBBBBB>
Sent: Tue, Sep 28, 2021 4:35 pm
Subject: XXXXXX October 14 and YYYYY ZZZZZ - Friday, October 15 at Le Venue - COVID Policy

XXXXX is also requiring all staff to be vaccinated or negative covid test within 72 hours.

We have other shows that are going to require it as well.

October 14 is 16 days away.  Start planning accordingly now.

If you have not done so have your staff send a photo of their vaccine card to S______ on copy.

Also we need to make sure when your staff is in the building they need to be masked at all times.

We have a bunch of shows in October.  Let’s keep it that way!"

So without vaccination I cannot dispatch a worker to that account.  I think we're at 100% in my shop (including office staff) so it's a matter of documentation.

[ProSoundWeb Community]