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Author Topic: Enough horsepower?  (Read 1805 times)

Steve-White

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Re: Enough horsepower?
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2021, 02:52:30 PM »

with the fly points on the tops you could put in the rings and attach some good rope to tent stakes and anchor them with three or four points to help keep stable in the winds also.   Think large antenna mast and safety wires.   Offered the suggestion also to On-Stage Stands and Hope to see a clamp on unit to hold speaker poles

I like the way you think.
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Mal Brown

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Re: Enough horsepower?
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2021, 11:44:52 PM »

Do you own scaff??
yep. use it frequently but only so high
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Mal Brown

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Re: Enough horsepower?
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2021, 11:59:31 PM »

I do many SOS gigs down on the waterfront where the wind just cranks.  Sports events needing announcing all along the waterfront...

Years ago a bud and I spent a few hours mixing concrete and filling painter's buckets sourced at home depot.  I embedded an eye bolt with a flange and a keeper nut into the better.  I have a dozen or so of them.  For SOS gigs in high wind - aound for lighting, I use a length of non-stretch line with a carabiner at each end.  The carabiners on toed ofd with bowlins.

Set the yoke of the stand tight.  Take a couple of loops above the yoke and suspend the concrete 'slug' a few inches off the ground.  Beats up the stand a bit but... it is going to stay tall and proud with a K-12 or DSR-112 on it even when it howls...

Over the dozen years or so I've been doing kite boarding derbies, I've had 1 come down.  Thankfully it didn't hit anyone.   The organizer loaded 9 sections of fencing with sponsor banners.    no wind relief.  All 9 sections went airborne.  Nobody was hurt.  It is a wonder... a K10 I had on a stock needed some internal repair.  Client was embarrassed and was happy to pay the insurance deductible....
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Enough horsepower?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2021, 12:34:34 AM »

I do many SOS gigs down on the waterfront where the wind just cranks.  Sports events needing announcing all along the waterfront...

Years ago a bud and I spent a few hours mixing concrete and filling painter's buckets sourced at home depot.  I embedded an eye bolt with a flange and a keeper nut into the better.  I have a dozen or so of them.  For SOS gigs in high wind - aound for lighting, I use a length of non-stretch line with a carabiner at each end.  The carabiners on toed ofd with bowlins.

Set the yoke of the stand tight.  Take a couple of loops above the yoke and suspend the concrete 'slug' a few inches off the ground.  Beats up the stand a bit but... it is going to stay tall and proud with a K-12 or DSR-112 on it even when it howls...

Over the dozen years or so I've been doing kite boarding derbies, I've had 1 come down.  Thankfully it didn't hit anyone.   The organizer loaded 9 sections of fencing with sponsor banners.    no wind relief.  All 9 sections went airborne.  Nobody was hurt.  It is a wonder... a K10 I had on a stock needed some internal repair.  Client was embarrassed and was happy to pay the insurance deductible....


Carabiner and rigging should not even be mentioned in the same discussion.  I am not a rigger though we are too the point we occasionally hire riggers.  I can ground rig for them with specific instructions, we do rig our own indoor Genie style lifts however Mike Pyle had a custom bracket designed for them that takes the clevis from the fly frames and then GAC slings as a fail safe.  My point being that I know what not to do.  You don't have enough friction coefficient on those buckets that they can't be pulled along by a good wind on your load.  It may not happen in this case but it's a lousy habit to get into and if someone who knows what they are doing sees it that's great way to get a reputation. 


What surprises me as the banter goes around is how seriously underpowered the rig you are suggesting is.  To cover that many people if they were paying for tickets, consistently and evenly would be a serious system.  To cover it nicely for the dancers then audible and even but around 90db SPL average or so would take a nice ground stacked horn system.  Ground stack arrays work about as well as arraying those 2 way boxes.  Let me explain.  Your pattern control only extends to the crossover point, below that you have no pattern control.  The pattern is quoted is really the point in the lateral plot where levels start to drop off at some frequency that looked good in a brochure.  Trying to utilize the vertical pattern as if it going to help I can't imagine would work well either.  It certainly is going to look weird too.


This is where good horn boxes really shined.  Three high ground stacks are designed for this kind of work (2x3 with 4 subs below the two mains).  Don't you have some KF650's ?  Why aren't you brining those.


I can't imagine how underpaid you will be for this and I have to ask, why is the band paying for production instead of the showbuyer.  This isn't a restaurant/lounge gig.  Who is paying for the porta potties, security, permits, verifying insurance etc? 


Tim M. explained it long again and when I started listening my life got a lot better.  Chasing these amateur run shit shows in a race to the bottom is nothing more than slow motion agony.  Don't even go after this business, let the trunk slammers chase each other.  Go out and search out people that will treat you, and pay you right.  If you don't have what you need cross rent it.  If you don't know how to manage to run the rig then hire someone else to do it with your shirts on and soak up everything, it's a cheap education. 


You have been getting nicer gear for a couple of years now, kinda want to get you over this hump and into the realm that at least you are making enough money to deal with the problems.



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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Enough horsepower?
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2021, 12:00:24 PM »

As usual the answer is "It depends".

What are your SPL expectation?  REALISTICALLY speaking, at what locations/distance?  And before you state a number, be sure to ALSO state the weighting (A,C etc) and the integration time (slow fast, peak).  From that the math is pretty simple.

The style of music is not really a good indication of SPL, although people like to use it.

What are the customers used to?  for starters.

For example, a beginning "rock band" will have different SPL needs than say AC/DC or Metallica.  They are all "rock bands" But there is a huge difference in PA needs/desires/expectations, even if playing the same size crowd.

I could say "Sure it will be fine" and be totally correct, and also say "No way" and still be totally correct.  Depending on the actual requirements.

It is not just the number of people, but how far away they are and what SPLs are expected at certain distances.
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Mal Brown

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Re: Enough horsepower?
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2021, 03:04:46 PM »


Carabiner and rigging should not even be mentioned in the same discussion.  I am not a rigger though we are too the point we occasionally hire riggers.  I can ground rig for them with specific instructions, we do rig our own indoor Genie style lifts however Mike Pyle had a custom bracket designed for them that takes the clevis from the fly frames and then GAC slings as a fail safe.  My point being that I know what not to do.  You don't have enough friction coefficient on those buckets that they can't be pulled along by a good wind on your load.  It may not happen in this case but it's a lousy habit to get into and if someone who knows what they are doing sees it that's great way to get a reputation. 


What surprises me as the banter goes around is how seriously underpowered the rig you are suggesting is.  To cover that many people if they were paying for tickets, consistently and evenly would be a serious system.  To cover it nicely for the dancers then audible and even but around 90db SPL average or so would take a nice ground stacked horn system.  Ground stack arrays work about as well as arraying those 2 way boxes.  Let me explain.  Your pattern control only extends to the crossover point, below that you have no pattern control.  The pattern is quoted is really the point in the lateral plot where levels start to drop off at some frequency that looked good in a brochure.  Trying to utilize the vertical pattern as if it going to help I can't imagine would work well either.  It certainly is going to look weird too.


This is where good horn boxes really shined.  Three high ground stacks are designed for this kind of work (2x3 with 4 subs below the two mains).  Don't you have some KF650's ?  Why aren't you brining those.


I can't imagine how underpaid you will be for this and I have to ask, why is the band paying for production instead of the showbuyer.  This isn't a restaurant/lounge gig.  Who is paying for the porta potties, security, permits, verifying insurance etc? 


Tim M. explained it long again and when I started listening my life got a lot better.  Chasing these amateur run shit shows in a race to the bottom is nothing more than slow motion agony.  Don't even go after this business, let the trunk slammers chase each other.  Go out and search out people that will treat you, and pay you right.  If you don't have what you need cross rent it.  If you don't know how to manage to run the rig then hire someone else to do it with your shirts on and soak up everything, it's a cheap education. 


You have been getting nicer gear for a couple of years now, kinda want to get you over this hump and into the realm that at least you are making enough money to deal with the problems.

Scott, the carabiners I use are climbing gear... designed to support a 200 lb climber and their gear the line has a central kevlar element that prevents stretch  This stuff is plenty strong.  Minor axis strength is rated at around 240 lbs ...  These aren't your off the shelf at home depot things...

You have the advantage of living / working in an actual MSA...  Where I'm at is more like CSA aka the farmers box o' veggies delivered monthly ;-)   Even though your business opportunities are far greater than mine, I prefer living out here in the boonies trying to be a medium fish in a small pond.

As a native guide said, "You city folk work 50 weeks so you can come here to hunt and fish for 2.  I can hunt and fish 52 weeks..."  I actually don't hunt or fish but you get the idea.  I'm sitting at my desk, looking south onto Mt Hood, dreaming of snow...
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Rick Powell

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Re: Enough horsepower?
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2021, 06:18:41 PM »

You have the advantage of living / working in an actual MSA...  Where I'm at is more like CSA aka the farmers box o' veggies delivered monthly ;-)   Even though your business opportunities are far greater than mine, I prefer living out here in the boonies trying to be a medium fish in a small pond.

As a native guide said, "You city folk work 50 weeks so you can come here to hunt and fish for 2.  I can hunt and fish 52 weeks..."  I actually don't hunt or fish but you get the idea.  I'm sitting at my desk, looking south onto Mt Hood, dreaming of snow...

And in remoter areas, they are probably happy to get the SPL this system will deliver, and pay what you quoted.
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Sam Costa

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Re: Enough horsepower?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2021, 01:27:11 PM »


Carabiner and rigging should not even be mentioned in the same discussion.  I am not a rigger though we are too the point we occasionally hire riggers.  I can ground rig for them with specific instructions, we do rig our own indoor Genie style lifts however Mike Pyle had a custom bracket designed for them that takes the clevis from the fly frames and then GAC slings as a fail safe.  My point being that I know what not to do.  You don't have enough friction coefficient on those buckets that they can't be pulled along by a good wind on your load.  It may not happen in this case but it's a lousy habit to get into and if someone who knows what they are doing sees it that's great way to get a reputation. 


What surprises me as the banter goes around is how seriously underpowered the rig you are suggesting is.  To cover that many people if they were paying for tickets, consistently and evenly would be a serious system.  To cover it nicely for the dancers then audible and even but around 90db SPL average or so would take a nice ground stacked horn system.  Ground stack arrays work about as well as arraying those 2 way boxes.  Let me explain.  Your pattern control only extends to the crossover point, below that you have no pattern control.  The pattern is quoted is really the point in the lateral plot where levels start to drop off at some frequency that looked good in a brochure.  Trying to utilize the vertical pattern as if it going to help I can't imagine would work well either.  It certainly is going to look weird too.


This is where good horn boxes really shined.  Three high ground stacks are designed for this kind of work (2x3 with 4 subs below the two mains).  Don't you have some KF650's ?  Why aren't you brining those.


I can't imagine how underpaid you will be for this and I have to ask, why is the band paying for production instead of the showbuyer.  This isn't a restaurant/lounge gig.  Who is paying for the porta potties, security, permits, verifying insurance etc? 


Tim M. explained it long again and when I started listening my life got a lot better.  Chasing these amateur run shit shows in a race to the bottom is nothing more than slow motion agony.  Don't even go after this business, let the trunk slammers chase each other.  Go out and search out people that will treat you, and pay you right.  If you don't have what you need cross rent it.  If you don't know how to manage to run the rig then hire someone else to do it with your shirts on and soak up everything, it's a cheap education. 


You have been getting nicer gear for a couple of years now, kinda want to get you over this hump and into the realm that at least you are making enough money to deal with the problems.

Scott,
This is a free event put on by the city that use to do it every year, but because of covid/plandemic, they were forced to stop until this year when they finally got it approved.

I do have the KF650 rig, but haven't deployed that in over a year, and like anything else I'm trying to find ways to make it easier for myself considering it's just me and a helper (friend of mine who's also in the music industry) I'm having a hard enough time trying to lock in A1's and A2's as EVERYONE in the my area is scheduling events left and right, so it's extremely difficult to hire anyone with solid a good ear and knowledge of audio and it's components. They pay well (mid $2K and with no lighting for the obvious reasons as it takes place during the day) and provide me with 50 amp distro box at the stage. It's sometimes hard to gauge how many people show up because there are no "ticket sales" and all depends on several factors like weather, other evens in the area that may be going on, whether or not the band has a good following or not, etc. For the 1500 that show up its sounds great. I was at the top of the hill towards the back and I was able to hear everything I needed and those people back there were able to have audible conversations, not screaming with their neighbors. Didnt have 1 person tell me its was too loud or too low for that event. But what happens if there happens to be 2500 people? would it be enough? I dont know... but there's no way to determine that.

So again, I feel the 4-SRX835p's along with front fills for the "dancers" up front and some out fills for the sleepy Sunday loungers along the sides of the 835p's of the park does pretty well for what it is. It's not a rock concert, most of the people here are your typical families that show up with a picnic basket and their kids and neighbors who just want to be out having a good time. Of course you have the usual party people up front dancing but that's about it.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 01:34:09 PM by Sam Costa »
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Peter Kowalczyk

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Re: Enough horsepower?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2021, 04:21:16 PM »

I have provided for a weekly 'Music In The Park' event in a similar grass amphitheater space for two years now (2019, cancelled 2020, and again this year).  The Stage is a concrete slab approx 40' wide, with about 250' throw to the back row.  Our space appears to be a deeper bowl than your picture, it's tiered, with the back row some 30' - 50' higher than the stage.  There are some pictures here: https://www.tdrpd.org/219/Music-in-the-Park

I won't presume to tell you what to do on your event, but I'll share my relevant experience.

Before I was brought in, talent had to arrange their own production, which varied widely.  Most would be lucky to get the 835-rig you're proposing.  Some dug deep into their own pockets to hire something adequate.  Expectations of both production and talent were very modest.

In 2019, I used a pair of Meyer UPQ-1P over two 18" subs per side and mixed on a tablet.  I got the UPQs up high on crank stands, and used some UPAs as front fills.  It was not really enough power, but the sound quality was good, the system was consistent, and the performers were thrilled to have any production provided.  It felt like we were providing some nice background entertainment for everyone's picnic.  We were averaging 750-1000 ppl per event.  Coming from the random hodgepodge that differed every week, everyone was very happy.

This year, I upgraded to 3x Meyer JM-1P over 2x 700-HP per side, Ground Stacked, with an M32 at front of house.  We were averaging more like 1500 ppl per event this year, and it felt like we were producing a proper concert.  Coming from a single 15" per side, everyone has been very happy. 

My goal for next year is to fly the PA.  As we all know, elevating your speakers can significantly improve coverage.  If I can pull it off, I suspect everyone will be very happy.

The moral of the story for me is that if you can exceed expectations, everyone will be very happy. 
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Re: Enough horsepower?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2021, 04:21:16 PM »


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