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[Brad Firestone]

Hi All,
I've lurked here for years and have really appreciated the great knowledge that's shared here.  But now I have a question that wasn't answered by just searching.

After COVID, we're about to bring our choir back in the sanctuary, which seats about 700.  Even before COVID, the choir wasn't singing very often, and not much participation.  But we have a new worship leader and there's been a lot of interest in getting things going again.  Probably looking at 30-40 members in the choir.

We had some old Yamaha 12" passive wedges, but they have seen better days and are not working well.  So would like to upgrade.  Would like to find something small, with good horizontal dispersion so that maybe a couple could provide what's needed for the choir.  (Band and worship team are on in-ears.) Plan on just putting a bit of the worship team vocals, piano, and a few other things as needed.  The choir can hear somewhat just from the house sound, but we'd like to give them a bit more support if possible.  I plan on staying passive since we've got lots of suitable amps, and I don't have to worry about power cables too.

I found the EV TX1122FM which is nice and small, with 90Hx50V coverage.  I think they would probably work okay, but would like to hear opinions on that. 

I also wondered if it would be completely crazy to think of using something like the EVU 2062/95??  It also has the 90Hx50V coverage, and since we're not going to need to reinforce much bottom end through these, I thought they might work.  Definitely small.  (Also considering using them as front, stage lip fills after we do a platform remodel.  So I wouldn't mind getting one or two to audition either way.)

Thanks for any thoughts about these speakers, or other suggestions!
Brad

[Dave Pluke]

I also wondered if it would be completely crazy to think of using something like the EVU 2062/95??  It also has the 90Hx50V coverage, and since we're not going to need to reinforce much bottom end through these, I thought they might work.  Definitely small.  (Also considering using them as front, stage lip fills after we do a platform remodel.  So I wouldn't mind getting one or two to audition either way.)

I get a little nervous when it comes to choir monitors. How are you mic'ing them?

You make a good case for the EVU 2062/95 and they would seem, on the surface, to be easier to control than the classic 12+Horn-on-top wedge.

You may want to look at some of the current coax wedges. They offer a lower profile, which may be a factor in a HOW.

Dave

[Mike Caldwell]

Choirs and monitors is walking a fine line. If you want to attempt to put the choir mics in the monitors at any meaningful  level you have crossed that line!

Putting tracks or any other music or band mix in the monitors is fine as long as you keep the level to absolute minimum and even that maybe too much.
If the monitor level is louder than the choir voices guess what the choir mics will be picking up.

You said the band is on in ears, how close are they to the choir and how much stage volume is there.

[Brad Firestone]

Thanks for the replies!
A little more background:  Over the last year or so, we've been working on improving things and resolving some issues created by former staff, including equipment selection.  Most of our upgrades and changes have been geared toward streaming due to COVID.  But we're just now getting to the choir since they are just now coming back.

So, micing:  Planning to change the mics to Shure MX202 or something similar, on stands.  Currently using some Heil LDC mics designed for drums.  Why??? Don't know, but that's what's there.  My first use of them with the choir will be this upcoming week's rehearsal.  We'll see how good/bad they are.  Open to other suggestions for mics, but don't know that the Earthworks or Audix over $1000/ea are in the budget.  Will keep mic count to the minimum possible for coverage, probably 3 or 4.

Will not be folding any choir back into their monitors.  Stage volume is pretty low.  Drums are caged and about 40' away from the choir.  Guitars are all direct or amps with mics are located off stage.  Piano, organ, and brass would be the loudest.  Brass is located opposite side of platform from the choir.

Mainly trying to get some of the front line vocals, occasional multi-track, maybe some piano or other instrumentation that is not being heard well in the choir.  Volume to be kept to the minimum possible.  Thankfully, due to low stage volume, we shouldn't have to push much power through the monitors.

Thanks again for any ideas on either the monitors or the mics.

[Brian Jojade]

Choir mic placement becomes key when you start dealing with monitors.

Generally, you're going to be working with distant mics, which means their gains are going to be high, and the pickup pattern can be wider than something with a close mic situation.  However, since the mics are distant from the choir, this also can be beneficial for monitor placement.  With regular monitors, the mic is positioned pretty much in the same place that you need the monitor sound present. This means the mic has no choice but to hear the monitor as well.  Hanging choir mics can be positioned completely out of the coverage pattern of the monitors.  This means you can potentially have louder monitors that don't get heard by the mics.  The key is to make sure they have a tight enough pattern and are positioned out of the pickup pattern of those mics.

More monitors with smaller, tighter patterns will give you better control than trying to use just 2 speakers to cover those 40 people

[Brad Firestone]

Thanks for the response Brian!
Unfortunately, hanging the mics isn't an option with the current platform/ceiling configuration.  After the remodel, we may have some trussing or other options we could use for hanging.  I will definitely keep that in mind.

This was one of the reasons I was looking at monitors with a narrow vertical coverage pattern.  Going with more, smaller monitors makes sense.  Thanks for bringing that up.

[Scott Holtzman]

Thanks for the response Brian!
Unfortunately, hanging the mics isn't an option with the current platform/ceiling configuration.  After the remodel, we may have some trussing or other options we could use for hanging.  I will definitely keep that in mind.

This was one of the reasons I was looking at monitors with a narrow vertical coverage pattern.  Going with more, smaller monitors makes sense.  Thanks for bringing that up.

Yamaha has some 12" coax that are shipping in November.  Contact Mike Pyle on this forum to get an order in.  Supply chain problems everywhere.  These Yamaha's look nicer and smaller than the Turbosounds that are equally hard to find.

[Nathan Eide]

Pay careful attention in your mic selection to pickup pattern and in particular, null points.  Normally, to keep PA feedback out of choir monitors, you would want very narrow pickup patterns, like hypercardiod.  But remember that super/hyper cards have a rear pickup lobe, and a very narrow, off-axis null region at 120 degrees.  Well-designed regular cardioids can have a wider 180 degree null region.

Good mic choices will have consistent off-axis response at all frequencies.  Check the published polar plots across the frequencies.  The MX202 have good consistency down to 500Hz, but choose your pattern carefully.

You want to make sure your monitors are placed precisely in this null region.  Whether the mics are hanging or on stands, you need to place and aim them carefully.  Getting even pickup of most choir arrangements usually means placing mics above the voices and pointing down.  This puts the nulls somewhere in an upward direction.  This can be good for rejecting the PA but makes monitor placement more difficult.  Hanging overhead monitors are usually the way to go.  With hanging mics and overhead monitors, you can align the nulls to the monitor locations.

With monitors on the floor, you will have more challenges trying to balance the voices, and trying to keep the monitors in the null regions.  With floor stand mics, they will be more subject to moving and misalignment and the monitors are harder to place well.

There really get to be a million variables, so the details will add up.  Careful selection and placement can make a big difference.

Nathan

[Chris Grimshaw]

The MX202 have good consistency down to 500Hz, but choose your pattern carefully.

Below about 500Hz is where most stage monitors will go to an essentially omnidirectional output, so the polar pattern becomes more important there.

Fig-8 mics tend to maintain their pattern very well, so placing monitors in the null would likely yield good results.

Chris

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