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[Keith Broughton]

I just wonder what other's thoughts are on this I left thinking maybe I'd send an email to a higher up at the hotel if y'all (smarter guys) thought it was as dangerous as I do.

Forget  the hotel and report it directly to the local electrical inspection authority or fire department.

[Milt Hathaway]

Forget  the hotel and report it directly to the local electrical inspection authority or fire department.

Yup. I've never been in any hotel or country club that cared about things like this unless someone wearing a badge points it out.

[Erik Jerde]

The second picture of the panel is a concern.  Not even close to code compliant.  Grounding panel with a lug is not kosher.  I would expect a ground buss bar.  Double lugging the two grounds a big no-no and a huge no-no for a panel ground.

Third picture panel was installed by Jethro Bodine Electric.  Moron didn't even use the bottom of the lugs for the output - double lugged everything.  Just shove the wires anywhere they fit - no big deal - don't worry about it.

I've seen worse, but not by much.

They may have double lugged it because the small wire was too small to be properly grabbed in the bottom lug by itself.  If so that’s just another clue to it being wrong.

[Steve-White]

They may have double lugged it because the small wire was too small to be properly grabbed in the bottom lug by itself.  If so that’s just another clue to it being wrong.

It looks like that quad box is the bottom of the totem pole.  Fed anywhere from 60-100 amps or more from the double lugged panel above it.  Looks like #6 going through the flex to it - wonder what type of voodoo magic they adapted #6 to standard 20A duplex receptacles?  I like the way they leap frogged that circuit from the double lug job - very nice, convenient too!

[Brian Jojade]

ok, well, to be fair, (in a completely incorrect way) the only way this would be a risk is if the equipment plugged in didn't have proper breakers on it.  Any 'overload' would happen external to the box. Eg, if you used an 18 gauge zip cord on a 20 amp circuit and tried to pull 20 amps through it, you'd have a problem too.

Of course, it's clearly an incorrect install and shouldn't be used as is.  If you were to load 20 amps on to each of the individual outlets, there's a chance that those internal jumper wires would overheat and fail, depending on their gauge and how they're connected inside the outlet.  Beyond that, there's no real risk to the internal wiring of the building, so at least that's a good thing...

If you've reported this to management at the venue and they don't care, I'd suggest reporting this as a clear code violation to the city.  Present them with your pictures and let them take it from there.  Hopefully they will respond and force the venue to make it right.  Of course, you do run the risk of the venue finding out it was you that reported them, and end up black listed.  But it's worth it if you can potentially save a life.

[brian maddox]

ok, well, to be fair, (in a completely incorrect way) the only way this would be a risk is if the equipment plugged in didn't have proper breakers on it.  Any 'overload' would happen external to the box. Eg, if you used an 18 gauge zip cord on a 20 amp circuit and tried to pull 20 amps through it, you'd have a problem too.

Of course, it's clearly an incorrect install and shouldn't be used as is.  If you were to load 20 amps on to each of the individual outlets, there's a chance that those internal jumper wires would overheat and fail, depending on their gauge and how they're connected inside the outlet.  Beyond that, there's no real risk to the internal wiring of the building, so at least that's a good thing...

If you've reported this to management at the venue and they don't care, I'd suggest reporting this as a clear code violation to the city.  Present them with your pictures and let them take it from there.  Hopefully they will respond and force the venue to make it right.  Of course, you do run the risk of the venue finding out it was you that reported them, and end up black listed.  But it's worth it if you can potentially save a life.

I hear what you're saying [and others on this thread] but I feel like we're all understating the actual magnitude of this "code violation". That quad box makes it possible for someone to plug in one orange extension cord and pull ONE HUNDRED Amps through it, which isn't that difficult to achieve if you've got a bunch of old school lighting or even a few coffee makers all run on cube tap Home Depot Edison "splitters" [since that pesky power strip keeps trippin']. That means that the likely "fuse" is gonna be the extension cord which will likely melt and burn once all those coffee makers hit "Brew" at the same time. And in all likelihood it'll do it's "fusing" right on top of the hotel carpet or behind the drapes where the excess was coiled and now we've got a hotel fire and things get deadly really quickly.

This needs to be reported. This isn't a "letter of the law" code violation with theoretical "edge case" ramifications. This is an inevitable catastrophe with VERY possibly deadly consequences.

[Steve-White]

^^^  You're right Brian.  The other crap will work.  The 100 amp fed duplex box is real dangerous and should be reported.  Dangerous to equipment, the facility, technical crew, performing artists and guests.

[Geoff Doane]

We had a gig this past weekend in a good sized ballroom (advertised as up to 500 guests) in a big hotel in a mid-sized town.

This is the kind of crap I'm used to seeing in hockey rinks, not ball rooms, although as other have pointed out, it looks like an attempt to do it right was made initially.
I haven't had to tie in tails in years (it's been range plugs or installed cams lately), but I think the last time was about 10 years ago when I ran into something similar.  The twist-locs were L14-30s, although I didn't use them.  Even my 2 ga. feeder tails were somewhat marginal if that line really was backed up with a 200A breaker.

GTD

[Stephen Swaffer]

I hear what you're saying [and others on this thread] but I feel like we're all understating the actual magnitude of this "code violation". That quad box makes it possible for someone to plug in one orange extension cord and pull ONE HUNDRED Amps through it, which isn't that difficult to achieve if you've got a bunch of old school lighting or even a few coffee makers all run on cube tap Home Depot Edison "splitters" [since that pesky power strip keeps trippin']. That means that the likely "fuse" is gonna be the extension cord which will likely melt and burn once all those coffee makers hit "Brew" at the same time. And in all likelihood it'll do it's "fusing" right on top of the hotel carpet or behind the drapes where the excess was coiled and now we've got a hotel fire and things get deadly really quickly.

This needs to be reported. This isn't a "letter of the law" code violation with theoretical "edge case" ramifications. This is an inevitable catastrophe with VERY possibly deadly consequences.

Even without the coffee makers, here is some interesting math.  What happens if you plug in your typical 50 foot 16 AWG cord-and plug in a dead short, or drop something on the end of the cord or pinch the cable in a door.  By ohms law, you draw 236 amps through that 100 amp fuse-which according to fuse trip curves will probably take some where around 60 seconds to blow.  That's a lot of arc welding going on and my guess any combustibles in the vicinity will commence to combusting.

Another consideration is the interupting capacity of fuses/breakers on things plugged in-I haven't researched, but I think it would be safe to assume that they assume a 15 amp plug will have a 15 amp breaker ahead of it to do the heavy lifting in the event of a fault.

[Scott Holtzman]

I hear what you're saying [and others on this thread] but I feel like we're all understating the actual magnitude of this "code violation". That quad box makes it possible for someone to plug in one orange extension cord and pull ONE HUNDRED Amps through it, which isn't that difficult to achieve if you've got a bunch of old school lighting or even a few coffee makers all run on cube tap Home Depot Edison "splitters" [since that pesky power strip keeps trippin']. That means that the likely "fuse" is gonna be the extension cord which will likely melt and burn once all those coffee makers hit "Brew" at the same time. And in all likelihood it'll do it's "fusing" right on top of the hotel carpet or behind the drapes where the excess was coiled and now we've got a hotel fire and things get deadly really quickly.

This needs to be reported. This isn't a "letter of the law" code violation with theoretical "edge case" ramifications. This is an inevitable catastrophe with VERY possibly deadly consequences.

I would say that if he can have someone else report it for him that would be beneficial.  Even in a town as big as Cleveland that we be more than black balled from the venue, that might get you run out of town.  Me personally I would have cut the wires on the edisons short enough so they can't be reconnected to the lugs.  Since I would have run a distro if asked I would say it was like that when I got here.

[ProSoundWeb Community]