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Author Topic: Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions  (Read 2153 times)

Terry Tarpening

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Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions
« on: July 31, 2021, 06:03:30 PM »

Have both units. P16-M has one, 1/4” stereo headphones output and two, 1/4” TS outputs as the output options. I’ve been using the stereo out to earbuds as a wired connection but now want to use the wireless as a stereo mix. The PSM has two, 1/4” TRS inputs. What cable(s) do I use to connect this?

I understand exactly what TS and TRS cables are and how they function. And nobody even makes a TS>TRS cable because it’s all unbalanced anyway so it’s moot.

Some questions:
1. Should I use an all stereo Y cable from headphones out to the two TRS inputs of the PSM?
OR
2. Use two, TS cables from P16-M to the PSM?
3. Does it matter using TS cables when the PSM takes TRS?
4. Will both in 1 and 2 work the same no matter which way I decide to go?

I emailed Shure and received an answer to use two, TS cables but they did not elaborate vs using one TRS Y cable for the headphones out. I’m sure they are correct but wanted some opinions I guess. I’m concerned with signal to noise ratio using unbalanced cables of 30 ft run. Wondering if stereo would give me a better signal. Thanks in advance!
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Terry Tarpening

Russell Ault

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Re: Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2021, 07:29:55 PM »

Have both units. P16-M has one, 1/4” stereo headphones output and two, 1/4” TS outputs as the output options. I’ve been using the stereo out to earbuds as a wired connection but now want to use the wireless as a stereo mix. The PSM has two, 1/4” TRS inputs. What cable(s) do I use to connect this?

I understand exactly what TS and TRS cables are and how they function. And nobody even makes a TS>TRS cable because it’s all unbalanced anyway so it’s moot.

Some questions:
1. Should I use an all stereo Y cable from headphones out to the two TRS inputs of the PSM?
OR
2. Use two, TS cables from P16-M to the PSM?
3. Does it matter using TS cables when the PSM takes TRS?
4. Will both in 1 and 2 work the same no matter which way I decide to go?

I emailed Shure and received an answer to use two, TS cables but they did not elaborate vs using one TRS Y cable for the headphones out. I’m sure they are correct but wanted some opinions I guess. I’m concerned with signal to noise ratio using unbalanced cables of 30 ft run. Wondering if stereo would give me a better signal. Thanks in advance!

Welcome to the forum! Thank you for actually reading the "real name" policy!

You said it yourself: the TRS headphone output is stereo. This means that Tip is "left audio hot", Ring is "right audio hot", and the Sleeve is both the "ground" and also the common audio signal return path. By definition, a stereo TRS connector carries two channels of unbalanced audio instead of a single channel of balanced audio.

Running a stereo signal into a balanced mono input is likely to do weird things (the most common "weird thing" is a sum of L and R but with the R polarity reversed, which has the effect of causing anything panned centre to disappear entirely); splitting a stereo signal and running it into two balanced mono inputs would do the same thing twice.

-Russ
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Terry Tarpening

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Re: Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2021, 08:53:12 PM »

Welcome to the forum! Thank you for actually reading the "real name" policy!

You said it yourself: the TRS headphone output is stereo. This means that Tip is "left audio hot", Ring is "right audio hot", and the Sleeve is both the "ground" and also the common audio signal return path. By definition, a stereo TRS connector carries two channels of unbalanced audio instead of a single channel of balanced audio.

Running a stereo signal into a balanced mono input is likely to do weird things (the most common "weird thing" is a sum of L and R but with the R polarity reversed, which has the effect of causing anything panned centre to disappear entirely); splitting a stereo signal and running it into two balanced mono inputs would do the same thing twice.

-Russ

No problem

So are you in agreement with Shure then? Use two, TS cables out of P16-M to TRS inputs of PSM 300?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 08:57:22 PM by Terry Tarpening »
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Terry Tarpening

Andrien (No Last Name)

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Re: Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2021, 09:53:49 PM »

Have both units. P16-M has one, 1/4” stereo headphones output and two, 1/4” TS outputs as the output options. I’ve been using the stereo out to earbuds as a wired connection but now want to use the wireless as a stereo mix. The PSM has two, 1/4” TRS inputs. What cable(s) do I use to connect this?

I understand exactly what TS and TRS cables are and how they function. And nobody even makes a TS>TRS cable because it’s all unbalanced anyway so it’s moot.

Some questions:
1. Should I use an all stereo Y cable from headphones out to the two TRS inputs of the PSM?
OR
2. Use two, TS cables from P16-M to the PSM?
3. Does it matter using TS cables when the PSM takes TRS?
4. Will both in 1 and 2 work the same no matter which way I decide to go?

I emailed Shure and received an answer to use two, TS cables but they did not elaborate vs using one TRS Y cable for the headphones out. I’m sure they are correct but wanted some opinions I guess. I’m concerned with signal to noise ratio using unbalanced cables of 30 ft run. Wondering if stereo would give me a better signal. Thanks in advance!

Just buy stereo trs to dual mono ts (usually it has indication for left and right) so number 1 should work (as long as you don't buy insert cable, it looks the same but usually doesn't have left/right or white/red indicators).
Number 2 should also works perfectly, as far as I know it the PSM support unbalance and balanced input on 6.3" jack, though I have use number 1 with my PSM900 and doesn't have issue as long as you buy the right cable.

In regards to signal integrity I don't think there will be much differences as both are unbalanced. Correct me if I'm wrong
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Terry Tarpening

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Re: Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2021, 10:24:12 PM »

Just buy stereo trs to dual mono ts (usually it has indication for left and right) so number 1 should work (as long as you don't buy insert cable, it looks the same but usually doesn't have left/right or white/red indicators).
Number 2 should also works perfectly, as far as I know it the PSM support unbalance and balanced input on 6.3" jack, though I have use number 1 with my PSM900 and doesn't have issue as long as you buy the right cable.

In regards to signal integrity I don't think there will be much differences as both are unbalanced. Correct me if I'm wrong

Thanks for the info. Wonder which input of the wireless I’d plug the TRS into? Left, right or does it matter? Left is generally reserved for mono.
And I just noticed on Sweetwater website they have a converter available. 1/4” TS male to 1/4” TRS female. Can’t attach photo it’s to large but here are the specs:

NP2C-T10AA

2 pole 1/4" professional phone plug, built-in 1:10 transformer to convert balanced signals (TRS, mic) to unbalanced (TS, guitar) signals

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Terry Tarpening

Mac Kerr

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Re: Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2021, 10:54:18 PM »

Thanks for the info. Wonder which input of the wireless I’d plug the TRS into? Left, right or does it matter? Left is generally reserved for mono.
And I just noticed on Sweetwater website they have a converter available. 1/4” TS male to 1/4” TRS female. Can’t attach photo it’s to large but here are the specs:

NP2C-T10AA

2 pole 1/4" professional phone plug, built-in 1:10 transformer to convert balanced signals (TRS, mic) to unbalanced (TS, guitar) signals

No.  You have misread Andrien's post. The cable he is suggesting has a single stereo TRS on one end, and 2 mono TS connectors on the other. You can either use that cable, or 2 TS mono cables. They will both work. No transformer is needed.

Mac
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Terry Tarpening

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Re: Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2021, 11:06:45 PM »

No.  You have misread Andrien's post. The cable he is suggesting has a single stereo TRS on one end, and 2 mono TS connectors on the other. You can either use that cable, or 2 TS mono cables. They will both work. No transformer is needed.

Mac

Ok so what you’re not saying is the wireless, though it’s inputs are TRS, it will apparently accept TS cables and the TRS end is for the P16-M? Don’t know why that converter even exists then if TRS accepts TS. It’s all unbalanced anyway…..
The headphones out is stereo. Wireless inputs are stereo. Wouldn’t you use a Y adapter, TRS on all 3 ends? Balanced end to balanced end? What the hell am I missing???
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 11:11:56 PM by Terry Tarpening »
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Terry Tarpening

Erik Jerde

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Re: Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2021, 12:32:58 AM »

Ok so what you’re not saying is the wireless, though it’s inputs are TRS, it will apparently accept TS cables and the TRS end is for the P16-M? Don’t know why that converter even exists then if TRS accepts TS. It’s all unbalanced anyway…..
The headphones out is stereo. Wireless inputs are stereo. Wouldn’t you use a Y adapter, TRS on all 3 ends? Balanced end to balanced end? What the hell am I missing???

None of the p16 outputs are balanced.

Just do what shure said.  Using a ts into a trs just shorts pin 3 to ground.  No problem as long as your run isn’t too long and/or in a noisy rf environment.  Without looking it up I would expect that the unbalanced L/R outputs are line level and will be less likely to encounter interference than the headphone output.  If you run long enough that you get interference that isn’t there with a short run then just balance the signal with a di or other transformer before sending it long distance.
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Russell Ault

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Re: Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2021, 12:58:34 AM »

{...} Wireless inputs are stereo. {...}

This is what you're missing. Each of the inputs on the PSM300 are mono.

To recap:

P16-M outputs:
  • Headphones - TRS - stereo unbalanced
  • L - TS - mono unbalanced
  • R - TS - mono unbalanced
PSM300 inputs:
  • L - TRS - mono balanced
  • R - TRS - mono balanced

Your options are:
  • Two TS cables, from L to L and from R to R, as Shure suggested
  • One TRS to double TS stereo-to-dual-mono adapter cable (wired as tip/sleeve to tip/sleeve and ring/sleeve to tip/sleeve) from the Headphone out to L and R as Andrien suggested

As mentioned, plugging a stereo, unbalanced signal into a mono, balanced input can only lead to weirdness, so splitting the stereo headphone output into two stereo feeds and plugging those into L and R will cause weirdness.

-Russ



Edited to add:

I just went back and re-read your initial post, where you said:

{...} I understand exactly what TS and TRS cables are and how they function. And nobody even makes a TS>TRS cable because it’s all unbalanced anyway so it’s moot. {...}

I'm going to expand to my response above a little to see if it helps. While you may understand exactly what TS and TRS cables are and how they function, your second statement (in addition to everything else you've said) suggests you're missing one very important piece of information: in Pro Audio, more often than not, TRS connectors do not carry stereo, unbalanced audio.

Think about an XLR connector: pin 1 is ground, pin 2 is "audio hot", pin three is "audio cold". This represents a balanced signal (or, perhaps more correctly, a differential signal, although with the provided ground reference it's probably balanced as well) and, in an ideal world, the electrical signals present on pin 2 will be exactly the same as those present on pin 3, but with the opposite polarity (i.e. if if pin 2 is +1 volt relative to ground, pin 2 will be at -1 volt relative to ground). This (give or take) is the standard analogue audio transport in the pro audio, and is used for everything from microphones to line-level signals.

Now, let's look at a TRS connector. It, too, has three "pins" (or, more correctly, contacts). In consumer audio these three contacts are used for two channels of audio (i.e. stereo), and this is achieved by using the (shared) ground on the sleeve as the return path for the audio signals (which, as you mentioned, is the definition of unbalanced signalling). This is very convenient if you're trying to plug in a pair of a headphones, but it suffers all the drawbacks of unbalanced signals.

However, the three contacts of the TRS connector also allow us to use it for a very different purpose, which is as a drop-in replacement for XLR connectors. Instead of using the three contacts for two unbalanced audio signals with a shared ground, we use them in exactly the same way we use the three contacts on an XLR connector: the tip is "audio hot" (just like XLR pin 2), the ring is "audio cold" (just like XLR pin 3) and the sleeve is ground (just XLR pin 1).

With a TS connector you always know you're getting one channel of unbalanced audio, since two contacts means one "audio hot" and one ground and that's it. However, TRS connectors can be used in two different ways, and the only way to be sure which is which is by reading the label. In your case, as mentioned above, the TRS connector on the P16-M is a headphone output, which means stereo and unbalanced, while the TRS connectors on the PSM 300 are labelled as single-channel inputs/outputs, which means mono and balanced. They're both the same connector, but they're doing two very different things, and simply plugging one into the other will not achieve what you're hoping to.

(As an aside, the 6.35mm connector may be my least-favourite audio connector simply for its vagueness. I'm sure I've done shows where I've used them to carry everything from microscopic super-high-impedance electric guitar signals to speaker-level signals measuring 100 volts or more. Good not to mix those two up!)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 01:22:21 AM by Russell Ault »
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Terry Tarpening

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Re: Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2021, 09:20:33 AM »

This is what you're missing. Each of the inputs on the PSM300 are mono.

To recap:

P16-M outputs:
  • Headphones - TRS - stereo unbalanced
  • L - TS - mono unbalanced
  • R - TS - mono unbalanced
PSM300 inputs:
  • L - TRS - mono balanced
  • R - TRS - mono balanced

Your options are:
  • Two TS cables, from L to L and from R to R, as Shure suggested
  • One TRS to double TS stereo-to-dual-mono adapter cable (wired as tip/sleeve to tip/sleeve and ring/sleeve to tip/sleeve) from the Headphone out to L and R as Andrien suggested

As mentioned, plugging a stereo, unbalanced signal into a mono, balanced input can only lead to weirdness, so splitting the stereo headphone output into two stereo feeds and plugging those into L and R will cause weirdness.

-Russ



Edited to add:

I just went back and re-read your initial post, where you said:

I'm going to expand to my response above a little to see if it helps. While you may understand exactly what TS and TRS cables are and how they function, your second statement (in addition to everything else you've said) suggests you're missing one very important piece of information: in Pro Audio, more often than not, TRS connectors do not carry stereo, unbalanced audio.

Think about an XLR connector: pin 1 is ground, pin 2 is "audio hot", pin three is "audio cold". This represents a balanced signal (or, perhaps more correctly, a differential signal, although with the provided ground reference it's probably balanced as well) and, in an ideal world, the electrical signals present on pin 2 will be exactly the same as those present on pin 3, but with the opposite polarity (i.e. if if pin 2 is +1 volt relative to ground, pin 2 will be at -1 volt relative to ground). This (give or take) is the standard analogue audio transport in the pro audio, and is used for everything from microphones to line-level signals.

Now, let's look at a TRS connector. It, too, has three "pins" (or, more correctly, contacts). In consumer audio these three contacts are used for two channels of audio (i.e. stereo), and this is achieved by using the (shared) ground on the sleeve as the return path for the audio signals (which, as you mentioned, is the definition of unbalanced signalling). This is very convenient if you're trying to plug in a pair of a headphones, but it suffers all the drawbacks of unbalanced signals.

However, the three contacts of the TRS connector also allow us to use it for a very different purpose, which is as a drop-in replacement for XLR connectors. Instead of using the three contacts for two unbalanced audio signals with a shared ground, we use them in exactly the same way we use the three contacts on an XLR connector: the tip is "audio hot" (just like XLR pin 2), the ring is "audio cold" (just like XLR pin 3) and the sleeve is ground (just XLR pin 1).

With a TS connector you always know you're getting one channel of unbalanced audio, since two contacts means one "audio hot" and one ground and that's it. However, TRS connectors can be used in two different ways, and the only way to be sure which is which is by reading the label. In your case, as mentioned above, the TRS connector on the P16-M is a headphone output, which means stereo and unbalanced, while the TRS connectors on the PSM 300 are labelled as single-channel inputs/outputs, which means mono and balanced. They're both the same connector, but they're doing two very different things, and simply plugging one into the other will not achieve what you're hoping to.

(As an aside, the 6.35mm connector may be my least-favourite audio connector simply for its vagueness. I'm sure I've done shows where I've used them to carry everything from microscopic super-high-impedance electric guitar signals to speaker-level signals measuring 100 volts or more. Good not to mix those two up!)

Thanks this helps. I wasn’t thinking of the Shure being mono balanced, I just seen TRS and forgetting TRS can be mono or stereo. That’s what was throwing me off.
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Terry Tarpening

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Connecting Behringer P16-M to Shure PSM 300 questions
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2021, 09:20:33 AM »


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