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[Frank Koenig]

Saturday I was providing playback and voice reinforcement for a wedding party for friends here in town. What should have been a simple gig became complicated. Party was to start at 5:00. I went over at 2:00 to set up a pair of 12 in. coaxes on sticks, a TH-mini, a Powersoft Ottocanali, and the A&H Qu-Pac. Program, via Bluetooth, was from  the host's phone and all was well when I departed, planning to return at party time. (I live about 1.5 mi. away.) I joked with the host that since everything was working we shouldn't touch it. Scarcely home I got a call that the music had stopped. I immediately blamed the Bluetooth receiver and headed back over with a replacement kidnapped from my home hi-fi. After some investigation it turned out that the Qu-Pac was at fault. Everything appeared to be working -- touchscreen, computer functions, meters showed signal, etc. -- but no audio from any of the analog outputs, including headphone.

After some fiddling I went back home to get the d-Live mixrack, which hadn't been out since before Covid. Hooked it up, connected the iPad to it over Wi-Fi, and was prompted for the administrator password. Oh shit! I knew it was something easy to remember, but what? I consulted the cheat-sheet taped inside the FOH case with all the passwords, (static) IP addresses, and so forth. Couldn't find it. Now in full panic mode, what to do?

The Bluetooth is line-level out, and I had a laptop with Armonia (the Powersoft control app) so I fired it up and hooked the Bluetooth receiver directly to the amplifier analog inputs. Re-jiggering the input matrix on the amplifier I got tunes going. Whew!.

On my next, and final, trip back I brought a little 2-channel Sound Devices preamp to boost the output of the wireless mic receiver to line-level and give me a gain knob (and a simple compressor). Switching between playback and voice required repatching XLRs on the amp but I got through the night.

This morning I found the d-Live password right at the top of my cheat-sheet. It was there all along. Go figure. I hooked up the Qu-Pac and, sure enough, after about 20 minutes it made a brief farting noise and the output quit. Same symptoms as the previous night. I leaned on top of the case and audio came back. An intermittent connection of some sort. I removed its clothes and for the last few hours it's been running fine on the test bench. If I cannot get it to fail again I'll "reseat the ribbon cables", and hope for the best. But it will be a long time before I trust it.

--Frank

[Bob Stone]

And this is why having a spare analog mixer (even a crappy little Mackie) kicking around is always good insurance. As much as everyone here says digital or nothing, there's something very reliable about having a simple analog board.

[Doug Fowler]

And this is why having a spare analog mixer (even a crappy little Mackie) kicking around is always good insurance. As much as everyone here says digital or nothing, there's something very reliable about having a simple analog board.

A Mackie 1202vlz is a great thing to have available. 

Frank - good one on the Bluetooth fix.

[Debbie Dunkley]

Not analog of course but I picked up a used QU-SB a while back to use as my back-up mixer to my QU PAC. I wanted something that could just 'drop in' real easy if the QU PAC fails. It came racked so it is well protected.
It often stays in the van at shows and gets little use BUT gives me so much more confidence just in case my QU PAC lets me down.

Ironically about 18 months ago - just as Covid was starting to affect things, I did a small private party and decided NOT to take my SB for the very first time - not even sure why. Yep - it was that show where my QU PAC caused me problems.....the network port failed and I had no way to remotely mix which was really disappointing given the fact it was my only way to mix front FOH.
I got through the evening sitting side stage using the small screen on the QU, selection buttons and the little knob along with using Chris to give me messages from the front - it was a tough gig!
When I got home and had more light and time, I realized the network port had a couple of bent pins which I fixed easily using a pair of very narrow thin nosed pliers and it has worked ever since AND I have taken the SB with me to every show EVER SINCE!
On a positive note, thank goodness the QU PAC has the screen and can be controlled from the unit itself unlike some rack units - this is one of the reasons I chose this model.
Anyway...sorry this happened to you Frank and I hope its a quick, inexpensive fix. Consider an SB as your back up if you can find a used one maybe - it would be a good option for you going forward.

BTW - I believe I caused the bent pins myself - earlier in the week I had used the QU PAC for a recording session and whilst fumbling at the back of the mixer trying to connect my USB-B cable, I accidentally tried to push it into the network port. The connections are right next to each other. I used very little force and as soon as I realized, I connected the cable correctly but that was enough to push a couple of pins out of alignment.

[Dave Garoutte]

And this is why having a spare analog mixer (even a crappy little Mackie) kicking around is always good insurance. As much as everyone here says digital or nothing, there's something very reliable about having a simple analog board.

+1
I use the A&H Zeds.  Small, decent, not expensive.  Actually my First choice for the little BG music events.

[dave briar]

And this is why having a spare analog mixer (even a crappy little Mackie) kicking around is always good insurance. As much as everyone here says digital or nothing, there's something very reliable about having a simple analog board.

No question that but I went the digital way.  My primary is a X32 Rack in a shallow six-RU SKB case — room for a Furman power strip and Ubiquiti router and AP — and my backup is a second X32 Rack in a three-RU SKB case that is setup by default as a stage box should I need more than 16 inputs.  A thumb drive easily converts the backup to primary should I ever need it. I’ve never had to do that but I only do 6-8 gigs a year on my personal equipment and it’s reassuring to know it is nearby.

[Bob Stone]

No question that but I went the digital way.  My primary is a X32 Rack in a shallow six-RU SKB case — room for a Furman power strip and Ubiquiti router and AP — and my backup is a second X32 Rack in a three-RU SKB case that is setup by default as a stage box should I need more than 16 inputs.  A thumb drive easily converts the backup to primary should I ever need it. I’ve never had to do that but I only do 6-8 gigs a year on my personal equipment and it’s reassuring to know it is nearby.

The thing with digital backup is there's just so many things that can go wrong other than the hardware itself...Like the OP maybe you'll forget a login, or maybe the laptop/tablet will have problems, maybe there's wifi interference, if it's the same unit or brand maybe a firmware update will result in the same glitch in both, maybe you can't get the networking sorted, and the list goes on. With an analog backup, plug things in and power up and away you go...even if you fry a strip, the rest will usually keep going too.

Dave - The A&H Zed's are nice units. I have a Mackie ProFx8v2 and Soundcraft EPM8 kicking around, both internal power supply units, easy peasey and handy for those one mic and an ipod shows.

[Debbie Dunkley]

For the shows I do, I really need to use a digital board as back up. I rely on having 5 separate mixes to my iems and of course there are the onboard FX etc...Using a digital board as backup means I have to take extra precautions though - I always have 5 iPads with me ( don’t laugh - 2 of them are old), I use 2 for lights, 1 for wireless mixing and 1 hardwired to the mixer in case of network issues - leaving 1 as a spare. I also never go to a show with updated firmware unless I have thoroughly tested everything...... With all that said I really regret selling my MixWiz years ago when I went digital. I should have kept it as my ‘spare’ spare....

[Nathan Riddle]

Saturday I was providing playback and voice reinforcement for a wedding party for friends here in town. What should have been a simple gig became complicated.

[snip]

Switching between playback and voice required repatching XLRs on the amp but I got through the night.

--Frank

I got the Flow8 For just these types of gigs and as a backup in a pinch to an xair/sq/dlive.

I guess I need a backup for the Flow8 now?

And this is why having a spare analog mixer (even a crappy little Mackie) kicking around is always good insurance. As much as everyone here says digital or nothing, there's something very reliable about having a simple analog board.

I fail to see how 'analog' makes it inherently more reliable.

PSU can fail, pots get corroded, op-amps break, etc.

[Bob Stone]

I got the Flow8 For just these types of gigs and as a backup in a pinch to an xair/sq/dlive.

I guess I need a backup for the Flow8 now?

I fail to see how 'analog' makes it inherently more reliable.

PSU can fail, pots get corroded, op-amps break, etc.

Software is far more buggy and failure prone than hardware circuits. Digital has all the faults of analog boards, plus the software aspects on top of all that. There's also no more setup with analog than plugging everything in...no booting, networking, settings, etc.

[Dave Garoutte]

Software is far more buggy and failure prone than hardware circuits. Digital has all the faults of analog boards, plus the software aspects on top of all that. There's also no more setup with analog than plugging everything in...no booting, networking, settings, etc.

Yup, it's mostly WYSIWYG.

[Russell Ault]

Software is far more buggy and failure prone than hardware circuits. Digital has all the faults of analog boards, plus the software aspects on top of all that. There's also no more setup with analog than plugging everything in...no booting, networking, settings, etc.

I have to disagree, at least in part. Software can have its downsides, but in closed-ended applications like a console, where you only need to do one thing and do it well, it becomes possible to write firmware that is close to flawless. Moreover, it's not difficult to manage things like new firmware versions having bugs by always making sure the backup console is at least one firmware version behind the main console.

Conversely, digital consoles can eliminate (or at least mitigate) many analogue-world faults. The parts of a console (any console) that are most likely to fail are the ones that move: knobs, switches, faders, etc. In the analogue world, where the audio signal path runs directly through these components, the failure of a component means the failure of the signal path. In the digital world  there's a level of abstraction, meaning that a dead (or failing) master fader doesn't necessarily mean a useless master output. The theoretically-possible MTBF for something like a DLive rack (or an X-Air, for that matter) is orders of magnitude higher than it is for any analogue console because all of the really failure-prone bits have been removed at the design stage.

As for ease of setup, that really depends on what you're trying to achieve. There's no argument that an analogue console will start passing audio faster than a digital one, but whether that audio is actually usable depends a lot on the application. One 58 on a stand and some background music? Sure, no problem. A bunch of lapel mics on a small stage? Well, maybe less so. It's one thing to carry a small analogue console as a backup; it's another to have to carry the equivalent outboard (or even a small subset of it); if nothing else, at some point the digital backup is both lighter and cheaper!

-Russ

[Bob Stone]

I have to disagree, at least in part. Software can have its downsides, but in closed-ended applications like a console, where you only need to do one thing and do it well, it becomes possible to write firmware that is close to flawless. Moreover, it's not difficult to manage things like new firmware versions having bugs by always making sure the backup console is at least one firmware version behind the main console.

Conversely, digital consoles can eliminate (or at least mitigate) many analogue-world faults. The parts of a console (any console) that are most likely to fail are the ones that move: knobs, switches, faders, etc. In the analogue world, where the audio signal path runs directly through these components, the failure of a component means the failure of the signal path. In the digital world  there's a level of abstraction, meaning that a dead (or failing) master fader doesn't necessarily mean a useless master output. The theoretically-possible MTBF for something like a DLive rack (or an X-Air, for that matter) is orders of magnitude higher than it is for any analogue console because all of the really failure-prone bits have been removed at the design stage.

As for ease of setup, that really depends on what you're trying to achieve. There's no argument that an analogue console will start passing audio faster than a digital one, but whether that audio is actually usable depends a lot on the application. One 58 on a stand and some background music? Sure, no problem. A bunch of lapel mics on a small stage? Well, maybe less so. It's one thing to carry a small analogue console as a backup; it's another to have to carry the equivalent outboard (or even a small subset of it); if nothing else, at some point the digital backup is both lighter and cheaper!

-Russ

No, it's not possible to write flawless software or firmware. Period. Anyone who tells you otherwise does not understand software development. My day job is as a software architect for enterprise level applications, I'm quite qualified to make this statement.

Given the software is layered on top of the hardware, it's just another thing to fail. Yes, moving components fail and at least with a digital console the moving parts aren't in the signal path they're just controlling the digital aspects...but losing a channel or even a master on an analog console doesn't leave you dead in the water, use other channels or an aux/sub...a firmware problem on the other hand can tank the entire board in one shot.

You are right though, it all depends on the level you're playing at. A-list touring act, you'll have two full consoles and stage racks and everything will be highly redundant. Weekend warrior with a $2000 digital console mixed on an ipad probably can be well served by a $200 analog backup instead of another $2000 digital box. Not everyone has unlimited budgets for gear and the ROI might not be there. Besides, any skilled audio engineer can still get a decent sound without outboard using a small analog board, won't be the same but it will get you through most gigs....sure better than having to mix on the amp control software like the OP lol

I think we can all agree than some backup is better than no backup. Personally I try to make sure I have two ways of doing every step in the signal path (e.g. spare mic, extra cables, second mixer or worst worst case direct into the powered speakers, an extra box, spare power cables, second laptop/tablet, etc.) with minor incremental equipment to carry. Two is one, one is none.

[Scott Holtzman]

No, it's not possible to write flawless software or firmware. Period. Anyone who tells you otherwise does not understand software development. My day job is as a software architect for enterprise level applications, I'm quite qualified to make this statement.

Given the software is layered on top of the hardware, it's just another thing to fail. Yes, moving components fail and at least with a digital console the moving parts aren't in the signal path they're just controlling the digital aspects...but losing a channel or even a master on an analog console doesn't leave you dead in the water, use other channels or an aux/sub...a firmware problem on the other hand can tank the entire board in one shot.

You are right though, it all depends on the level you're playing at. A-list touring act, you'll have two full consoles and stage racks and everything will be highly redundant. Weekend warrior with a $2000 digital console mixed on an ipad probably can be well served by a $200 analog backup instead of another $2000 digital box. Not everyone has unlimited budgets for gear and the ROI might not be there. Besides, any skilled audio engineer can still get a decent sound without outboard using a small analog board, won't be the same but it will get you through most gigs....sure better than having to mix on the amp control software like the OP lol

I think we can all agree than some backup is better than no backup. Personally I try to make sure I have two ways of doing every step in the signal path (e.g. spare mic, extra cables, second mixer or worst worst case direct into the powered speakers, an extra box, spare power cables, second laptop/tablet, etc.) with minor incremental equipment to carry. Two is one, one is none.

I have been thinking about picking up one of those little Mackie's that the iPad slips into or the Behringer equivalant.  Both are in the used market under $700 and would be great backups up to a certain point.


Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think touring acts carry a spare mixer.  They can always rent one if they need to and the monitor mixer could be pressed into double duty.  I have no idea about the arena touring level but the one truck tours I have never noticed a spare desk.

[Dan Richardson]

Conversely, digital consoles can eliminate (or at least mitigate) many analogue-world faults. The parts of a console (any console) that are most likely to fail are the ones that move: knobs, switches, faders, etc.

All day. Count on the jacks and pots of a mixer that hasn't been touched in a year, or two, or three? No thanks. I keep an XR18 in the end of one of the flight cases.

[Nathan Riddle]

All day. Count on the jacks and pots of a mixer that hasn't been touched in a year, or two, or three? No thanks. I keep an XR18 in the end of one of the flight cases.

This ∆

I'll take a XR18 as a backup console over anything else.
[Lab lounge level]

[Bob Stone]

I have been thinking about picking up one of those little Mackie's that the iPad slips into or the Behringer equivalant.  Both are in the used market under $700 and would be great backups up to a certain point.


Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think touring acts carry a spare mixer.  They can always rent one if they need to and the monitor mixer could be pressed into double duty.  I have no idea about the arena touring level but the one truck tours I have never noticed a spare desk.

Every tour is different but the really big ones often have a second console at FOH.

[Tim McCulloch]

Every tour is different but the really big ones often have a second console at FOH.

Uh... not that I've seen.  The DigiCo users may have a hot spare waiting in a vom, ready to be wheeled to monitor beach or FOH, but I don't recall every seeing a fully set, in position, replacement audio console at FOH in the past 20 years.  Any additional desks you've seen set at FOH were probably for support acts (and I've seen a support act's desk pressed into service when the DigiCo at FOH locked up and would not respond.

See a common thread to this post?  Just saying that I don't care if the console mixes Betty Crocker cake batter, I don't care how flexible or customizable a console is if it won't stay working.

[Doug Fowler]

Every tour is different but the really big ones often have a second console at FOH.

Not in my experience.  Spare PSU yes, spare console no.

[Mac Kerr]

Every tour is different but the really big ones often have a second console at FOH.

In my experience if there are 2 consoles at FOH it is either the support act or the show uses 2 consoles.

Mac

[Doug Fowler]

In my experience if there are 2 consoles at FOH it is either the support act or the show uses 2 consoles.

Mac

I remember when I first saw an M7-CL. "That right there is the end of 4Ks and racks full of dbx and spx for openers". 

[Bob Stone]

In my experience if there are 2 consoles at FOH it is either the support act or the show uses 2 consoles.

Mac

Maybe that's what I've been seeing, most of the big shows I've been at there has been more than one console, a few times a pair of identical ones or sometimes same type but smaller frame...can't say I've operated at that level or had the chance to talk to the guys, so who knows if they're redundancy or more channels or other acts or whatnot.

[Russell Ault]

No, it's not possible to write flawless software or firmware. Period. {...}

...hence my use of the qualifier "close to". Nothing is perfect, in software or circuit design, but the simpler the device or software, the closer you can get.

{...}
Given the software is layered on top of the hardware, it's just another thing to fail. Yes, moving components fail and at least with a digital console the moving parts aren't in the signal path they're just controlling the digital aspects...but losing a channel or even a master on an analog console doesn't leave you dead in the water, use other channels or an aux/sub...a firmware problem on the other hand can tank the entire board in one shot.
{...}

There are plenty of failures that would render an analogue console inoperative, too. Mercifully, neither they nor firmware failure are particularly common (with a few notable exceptions), while knob degradation is almost guaranteed. Plus, as others have mentioned, if we're talking about back-ups (i.e. something that, ideally, gets tested more often than it gets used), I'd much rather be relying on a device that has a few points of catastrophic failure over something with a whole bunch of points of gradual but inevitable decline.

{...} Besides, any skilled audio engineer can still get a decent sound without outboard using a small analog board, won't be the same but it will get you through most gigs....{...}

Speaking personally, I've done plenty of simple-seeming corporate events where a three-band EQ (even with mid sweep!) would not have gotten me close to the GBF I needed to deal with the mumbler wearing a tie-clip mic standing beside (or, on a really bad day, in front of) the PA.

-Russ

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