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Author Topic: Outdoor GFI and my city  (Read 4024 times)

Kelly_Dodge

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Outdoor GFI and my city
« on: July 12, 2021, 01:06:23 PM »

I have a (temporary) stage setup at an arts center. The city is demanding that ALL outdoor electrical be on GFCIs.

We are a little old school in the lighting department. Inside, they have a breaker panel with with camlock outputs. We run the camlock cables to a dimmer pack. The dimmer pack runs socapex out the door of the building to the stage, and connects to the lights hanging from the roof.

The city has asked if we can get a 100 amp 3 phase GFCI breaker. I've called around. It seems that it doesn't exist, at least for their electrical panel (Square-D).

Is there a way to comply with what they want?

And more complicated probably, is there a document that I can give them from somewhere showing what the "industry standard" is and how they are being overly cautious? I think they kind of just don't understand what we are doing...

Thanks!
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Outdoor GFI and my city
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2021, 02:21:12 PM »

https://www.littelfuse.com/products/shock-block-gfci/industrial-products/sb6000.aspx



I didn't see a price but you what they say if you have to ask about the price it is probably too high.

=======

I would expect GFCI outlets for everything the meat puppets touch should be enough.

In europe they use RCL (similar to GFCI) to protect entire branches but single phases AFAIK

JR
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Scott Hofmann

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Re: Outdoor GFI and my city
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2021, 03:18:54 PM »

Doubt the Littelfuse Shock Block would work with the Socapex/conventional lighting as the spec sheet says it cannot be used with loads that have a neutral.
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Scott Hofmann

Art Welter

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Re: Outdoor GFI and my city
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2021, 04:33:11 PM »


The city has asked if we can get a 100 amp 3 phase GFCI breaker. I've called around. It seems that it doesn't exist, at least for their electrical panel (Square-D).

Is there a way to comply with what they want?
Kelly,

Bender (yes, Futurama is now) might have what you are looking for:

https://www.benderinc.com/products/protection-panels/gfgc-series

Not going to be a simple replace the mains breaker solution- questions? Contact Bender..

Art
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 04:38:21 PM by Art Welter »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Outdoor GFI and my city
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2021, 08:57:47 PM »

I have a (temporary) stage setup at an arts center. The city is demanding that ALL outdoor electrical be on GFCIs.

We are a little old school in the lighting department. Inside, they have a breaker panel with with camlock outputs. We run the camlock cables to a dimmer pack. The dimmer pack runs socapex out the door of the building to the stage, and connects to the lights hanging from the roof.

The city has asked if we can get a 100 amp 3 phase GFCI breaker. I've called around. It seems that it doesn't exist, at least for their electrical panel (Square-D).

Is there a way to comply with what they want?

And more complicated probably, is there a document that I can give them from somewhere showing what the "industry standard" is and how they are being overly cautious? I think they kind of just don't understand what we are doing...

Thanks!

The key in Code and OSHA is outlets "for use by personnel." 
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Outdoor GFI and my city
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2021, 12:13:21 AM »

I found this doing a very quick search......

https://www.motionlabs.com/gfci-protection-live-performances/


I remember hearing an "interpretation" of the code at one time that more or
less said if the outlets did not have public access GFI's were not needed.
That interpretation may have been complete bunk as well.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2021, 06:53:48 PM by Mike Caldwell »
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Outdoor GFI and my city
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2021, 12:28:52 PM »

In 2017 NEC they added 210.8(b)  All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 50 amperes or less, and all receptacles supplied by three-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 100 amperes or less, installed in the locations specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (B)(12) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

I believe the "for personnel" is indicating that it be the lower threshold GFCI's.  It lists locations-one of which is outdoors with the only exceptions being de-icing equipment and industrial establishments.

I don't have a 2020 NEC handy-it may have been modified since then, since oftentimes a rule is written and potential situations like yours are overlooked.  I would try to argue that this is not a receptacle.
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Steve Swaffer

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Outdoor GFI and my city
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2021, 12:34:32 PM »

When in doubt do what's right...

All backline and gear that humans touch (like consoles) should be GFCI protected.  This can be covered by GFCI outlet strips.

JR
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Jeff Bankston

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Re: Outdoor GFI and my city
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2021, 05:28:56 AM »

I retired from being a commercial electrician a while back. You should be able to buy a 100 amp gfci 3 pole breaker to fit that panel "IF" the panel has space for it. You would probably need to install a 5 wire 100 amp panel or box mount plug under or on the side of the panel with a mating connector on the cord. I have mounted these type of connectors in and under panels. It aint gonna be cheap. Try Lukow Electric he might have a GFCI 3 pole 100A Square D breaker.

https://www.danluckowelectricinc.com/squared.asp

https://www.hubbell.com/hubbell/en/Products/Electrical-Electronic/Wiring-Devices/Pin-Sleeve/IEC-Devices/HBL5100R9W/p/1635915

https://www.hubbell.com/hubbell/en/Products/Electrical-Electronic/Wiring-Devices/Pin-Sleeve/IEC-Devices/HBL5100P9W/p/1633885



« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 05:45:45 AM by Jeff Bankston »
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Brian Jojade

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Re: Outdoor GFI and my city
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2021, 03:56:46 PM »

As much as I understand why GFCI is important, I'd be leery of having GFCI on the entire mains of the system.  Any little branch has a problem and you'll take down the ENTIRE rig.  Yuck.

Couple that with the fact that the cumulative acceptable leakage on a single branch would all be combined together, so you potentially would have false trips on the main.  I've seen cases where single LED lights are just fine, but when you connect a dozen or so on the same GFCI, it causes it to trip.  Assuming the safe trip levels were on the main feeds, you've got a potential nightmare scenario developing!

Oh, and crown iTech amps? Yeah, those trip GFCI's automatically, so those would be out of the question too.

So, really, what we would want is GFCI on each leg going out of the distro system, one for each circuit.  On your dimmers it could get tricky though, as you feed it a large supply and then split within the dimmer.  Ugh.  Yeah, this request is going to be tough to comply with.
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Brian Jojade

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Outdoor GFI and my city
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2021, 03:56:46 PM »


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