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[Nick Pires]

Looking to see if something like this exists. Here is the background info.
We have 6 amp racks with a multi-pin return snake system...each rack has a 12ch LK in/thru on a panel, with XLR fanouts inside to patch to any input of 4 DSP amps.
The way the system was designed, these would be patched during show prep depending on the needs of the show. For example, if a rack was being used for 8 monitor mixes, Ch 1-8 from the LK would be patch to the correct amp inputs to feed 8 wedge mixes. It needs to be really flexible as these amps can drive active or passive wedges, different models of subs, line arrays, etc.

The boss doesn't love the idea of having to open up the back of the rack to patch before every gig (he and I disagree to some extent on this). So his idea is to move all the patch/routing to switches on the front panel. So we would need a 12 input/8-12 output switching device. The idea is that there would be no level control, no A/D-D/A conversion, no processing, no computer/control interface. Just the ability, through switches, to route any of the inputs (fed from the LK panel), to any of the outputs (fed to the amp inputs).

The only options I've found so far that can do this are made by brands I have never heard of (MSC Corp), incorporate video switching, or they are DSP-based like the Ashly 24.24. None of that is what we are really looking for.

[Philip Roberts]

The boss doesn't love the idea of having to open up the back of the rack to patch before every gig (he and I disagree to some extent on this). So his idea is to move all the patch/routing to switches on the front panel. So we would need a 12 input/8-12 output switching device. The idea is that there would be no level control, no A/D-D/A conversion, no processing, no computer/control interface. Just the ability, through switches, to route any of the inputs (fed from the LK panel), to any of the outputs (fed to the amp inputs).

I'm not aware of any commercial products that would do this, if there are any I'm guessing they would be physically large.

You could DIY using something like this rotary switch: https://www.newark.com/electroswitch/c4d0212n-a/switch-rotary-dp12t-500ma-125v/dp/06M4594

Philip

[Jason Glass]

Looking to see if something like this exists. Here is the background info.
We have 6 amp racks with a multi-pin return snake system...each rack has a 12ch LK in/thru on a panel, with XLR fanouts inside to patch to any input of 4 DSP amps.
The way the system was designed, these would be patched during show prep depending on the needs of the show. For example, if a rack was being used for 8 monitor mixes, Ch 1-8 from the LK would be patch to the correct amp inputs to feed 8 wedge mixes. It needs to be really flexible as these amps can drive active or passive wedges, different models of subs, line arrays, etc.

The boss doesn't love the idea of having to open up the back of the rack to patch before every gig (he and I disagree to some extent on this). So his idea is to move all the patch/routing to switches on the front panel. So we would need a 12 input/8-12 output switching device. The idea is that there would be no level control, no A/D-D/A conversion, no processing, no computer/control interface. Just the ability, through switches, to route any of the inputs (fed from the LK panel), to any of the outputs (fed to the amp inputs).

The only options I've found so far that can do this are made by brands I have never heard of (MSC Corp), incorporate video switching, or they are DSP-based like the Ashly 24.24. None of that is what we are really looking for.

While I see that switches are your preference, those devices are surprisingly expensive and usually have network control and automation features that you pay for but might not need.  For example https://www.extron.com/product/mavplus1616a?subtype=134 is over $9-grand.

A simpler, more reliable, and far less expensive option would be to wire up a TT patch bay panel.   https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?q=tt%20patch%20bay&sort=PRICE_LOW_TO_HIGH

[Nick Pires]

I'm not aware of any commercial products that would do this, if there are any I'm guessing they would be physically large.

You could DIY using something like this rotary switch: https://www.newark.com/electroswitch/c4d0212n-a/switch-rotary-dp12t-500ma-125v/dp/06M4594

Philip

We want to avoid going to DIY route. Also, a switch like this doesn't seem to allow for one input to be routed to multiple outputs at the same time.
I found this product... https://www.matrixswitchcorp.com/products/MSC-XA1616L/#tab=3 which seems to do what we're looking for. But I have never heard of the company, so reliability and support are unkowns.

[Jason Glass]

I'm not aware of any commercial products that would do this, if there are any I'm guessing they would be physically large.

You could DIY using something like this rotary switch: https://www.newark.com/electroswitch/c4d0212n-a/switch-rotary-dp12t-500ma-125v/dp/06M4594

Philip

Back in the early 2000's, I built a couple of two-way 8 channel XLR switchers with rotary switches for a client.  My client chose to have me use capacitors in series to suppress pops and it ended up working well.  They're not strictly necessary if you'll only ever switch with the downstream devices muted.

To do 12-way 12-channel right requires 3-pole switches, and in this case 12 positions.  Times 12 switches.  https://www.newark.com/electroswitch/c4d0312n-a/switch-rotary-3p12t-500ma-125v/dp/06M4596

You must be careful to not design it backwards, where it's possible to sum multiple inputs to single outputs, potentially blowing up the output op amps in the devices that feed the switcher.  This is accomplished by making sure that the switch box's output connectors route from the common lugs on the switches, and input connectors route to the pole lugs.  This allows channels to split from single input to multiple outputs, while not allowing the reverse "wye" config.

[Brian Bolly]

Looking to see if something like this exists. Here is the background info.
We have 6 amp racks with a multi-pin return snake system...each rack has a 12ch LK in/thru on a panel, with XLR fanouts inside to patch to any input of 4 DSP amps.
The way the system was designed, these would be patched during show prep depending on the needs of the show. For example, if a rack was being used for 8 monitor mixes, Ch 1-8 from the LK would be patch to the correct amp inputs to feed 8 wedge mixes. It needs to be really flexible as these amps can drive active or passive wedges, different models of subs, line arrays, etc.

The boss doesn't love the idea of having to open up the back of the rack to patch before every gig (he and I disagree to some extent on this). So his idea is to move all the patch/routing to switches on the front panel. So we would need a 12 input/8-12 output switching device. The idea is that there would be no level control, no A/D-D/A conversion, no processing, no computer/control interface. Just the ability, through switches, to route any of the inputs (fed from the LK panel), to any of the outputs (fed to the amp inputs).

The only options I've found so far that can do this are made by brands I have never heard of (MSC Corp), incorporate video switching, or they are DSP-based like the Ashly 24.24. None of that is what we are really looking for.

Putting active electronics in this spot is adding a point of failure. 

SSE hire/Capital Sound in the UK have a double sided patch panel that I think would accomplish what you want.  It was all done on a 3U or 4U panel and is a bit more manual patching, but it works.  And it's just XLRs/XLR connectors.  Let me see if I can dig up a photo or two from the "before times" and see if I can clarify.

[Jason Glass]

Putting active electronics in this spot is adding a point of failure. 

SSE hire/Capital Sound in the UK have a double sided patch panel that I think would accomplish what you want.  It was all done on a 3U or 4U panel and is a bit more manual patching, but it works.  And it's just XLRs/XLR connectors.  Let me see if I can dig up a photo or two from the "before times" and see if I can clarify.

Two of these for $99 each and (12) 24-inch mic cables for front patching would nail this gig on a tight budget: https://www.amazon.com/ART-P16-XLR-Balanced-Patchbay/dp/B004J9WSD0

[Bob Stone]

I know a shop that could probably custom build you something like this but it probably wouldn't be cheap.

[Nick Pires]

Two of these for $99 each and (12) 24-inch mic cables for front patching would nail this gig on a tight budget: https://www.amazon.com/ART-P16-XLR-Balanced-Patchbay/dp/B004J9WSD0

Avoiding physical patch cables (especially on the outside of the rack) is one of the reasons we're looking into a matrix switch system. Our current system as is has the flexibility we need with all the patching inside the rack. What we're looking to add is a way to make it cleaner with a really simple, easy to use (and see) interface. This isn't so much a "tight budget" project...more of a "right budget" project. Meaning we would pay more for the product that is durable, does exactly what we need it to do, and is made and well-supported by a reputable manufacturer. I realize it may not exist. But if it does, I suspect someone on this board would know!

[Erik Jerde]

I’ve used an 8x8 Kramer balanced stereo audio matrix before and have been happy with it.  They make a 16x16 one as well.  I know you don’t need stereo but that wouldn’t stop you from using it.

https://www.kramerav.com/us/product/vs-1616a

[ProSoundWeb Community]