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Author Topic: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure  (Read 3471 times)

Russell Ault

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Re: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure
« Reply #80 on: June 13, 2021, 07:47:50 PM »

^^^ Unfortunately, how it should be or how it could be doesn't track with how it really is.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear: the information I posted is based on current census (2019) and crime (last 60 days) data. "Crime doesn't necessarily correlate with population density" isn't some theoretical hypothesis; it's a direct observation of "how it really is".

-Russ
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure
« Reply #81 on: June 14, 2021, 01:41:33 PM »


One more thought: there is some (perhaps anectodal) evidence that while a paved road is more expensive to build than gravel, the maintenance costs are much, much lower. A well-built paved road could be cheaper in the long term.

That observation was thrown at our county engineer when my road was being paved (just to my driveway-kinda like it that way :)  )  While that statement may be true, the difference of maintenance vs building is so drastically different that it would be many decades before it ever equaled out.  I thought it interesting that my road was paved when the county came into a "windfall" and decided to pave this road as it was the last one scheduled to be paved on a 40 year old plan.  Think things might have changed in 40 years?  I do have a neighbor that lives a few hundred feet down a side road that was not scheduled to be paved.  He had deep enough pockets to pave the road to his house just so he could live on a hard surface road.

I don't know the equities of taxes versus services.  I do know that during a years long discussion on zoning, it was often brought up that people move to the "country" lured by open space and lower taxes-but not understanding that roads don't always get plowed and there are real limitations on fire/police/ems services as well.  When we had  a major house fire over a decade ago, it took 18 minutes for the fire department to arrive on site (partly due to icey roads).  For years, I figured on missing a day or two of work every year because the roads would be impassable-even with 4WD.  I was stubborn enough to bury a vehicle a couple of times before I got smart.

Brian mentioned $1.20 electricity/gallon of gas earlier.  But that brings up another question.  When gas was around $2.00/gallon here, something around 50-60 cents/gallon was taxes-primarily (supposedly anyway) used for roads.   Those tax dollars will have to be replaced somehow-electric vehicles will be just as hard on roads as IC powered.  I know there are ideas-probably none as hack/scam proof though as paying at the pump as we currently do.
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Steve Swaffer

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure
« Reply #82 on: June 14, 2021, 03:09:55 PM »



Brian mentioned $1.20 electricity/gallon of gas earlier.  But that brings up another question.  When gas was around $2.00/gallon here, something around 50-60 cents/gallon was taxes-primarily (supposedly anyway) used for roads.   Those tax dollars will have to be replaced somehow-electric vehicles will be just as hard on roads as IC powered.  I know there are ideas-probably none as hack/scam proof though as paying at the pump as we currently do.
The legislators have been chewing on this one for decades... not just EV but very efficient cars use less fuel, while lighter cars put less stress on road surfaces. The legislators unable to deal with the cognitive dissonance from taxing EVs while simultaneously subsidizing them have kept kicking this new EV tax down the road every time. Last proposal I've heard was including car odometer reading on tax forms and everybody paying per mile, while they are unlikely to remove the gasoline tax.

JR   
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure
« Reply #83 on: June 14, 2021, 05:14:21 PM »

The legislators have been chewing on this one for decades... not just EV but very efficient cars use less fuel, while lighter cars put less stress on road surfaces. The legislators unable to deal with the cognitive dissonance from taxing EVs while simultaneously subsidizing them have kept kicking this new EV tax down the road every time. Last proposal I've heard was including car odometer reading on tax forms and everybody paying per mile, while they are unlikely to remove the gasoline tax.

JR

JR wins the Internet for 15 seconds.  Tax while simultaneously subsidizing, priceless. 
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Steve-White

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Re: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure
« Reply #84 on: June 14, 2021, 06:05:17 PM »

JR wins the Internet for 15 seconds.  Tax while simultaneously subsidizing, priceless.

I believe the concept is known as "Government"...

Kinda like when the geniuses decided it was a good idea to tax social security.  Pass out government assistance to the populous, then tax them on it - astounding.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2021, 12:23:51 PM by Steve-White »
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Chris Hindle

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Re: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure
« Reply #85 on: June 15, 2021, 08:02:06 AM »

I believe the concept is known as "Government"...

Kinda like when the geniuses decided it was a good idea to tax social security.  Pass our government assistance to the populous, then tax them on it - astounding.
One head scratcher up here in Quebec....
An ex husband claims alimony and child support on his taxes. He gets a nice break.
Ex wife and mother has to claim that "income" on her taxes. No break for the one that NEEDS it.
What a system.
I think we need more woman in politics. Maybe even out some of the stupidity.
>or not<
I have seen some women in power that are no better than men, but I guess that's how they got there.
Chris.

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Steve-White

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Re: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure
« Reply #86 on: June 15, 2021, 12:26:44 PM »

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear: the information I posted is based on current census (2019) and crime (last 60 days) data. "Crime doesn't necessarily correlate with population density" isn't some theoretical hypothesis; it's a direct observation of "how it really is".

-Russ

Crystal clear Russ.  No, crime does not track directly with population density - gotta factor in the socioeconomic elements.  Typically trended to specific areas and are always the worst in the highest density parts of them.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure
« Reply #87 on: June 15, 2021, 04:34:43 PM »

One could argue almost anything...

The US interstate highway system was promoted by President Eisenhower  because of lessons learned during WWII (He liked that autobahn). Serviceable roads are useful for military readiness. Its hard to think like that so many decades later, but it was a valid concern at one time. The unintended side effect of promoting commerce was icing on the cake.

JR

But if we read the U.S. Constitution, there's a mandate for building "post roads." While the concept of "post roads" is ostensibly for the transport of postal mail, they also support commerce and military strategy. The founders of this country were businessmen; I don't think the utility of post roads for commerce was lost on them. The Interstate Highway System, I think, perfectly embodies the dream of the founders -- and not just for getting the mail through.

I believe the Constitution was originally written for the promotion and protection of free commerce. Even the military bits are there to protect trade (which, when you think about it, is the purpose of almost every military action). The Bill of Rights came about when they realized that individual liberties could be trampled in the pursuit of commerce -- and, without those protections, the pursuit of commerce could lead to fiefdoms and a fracturing of the union.
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Russell Ault

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Re: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure
« Reply #88 on: June 15, 2021, 06:34:49 PM »

{...} Typically trended to specific areas and are always the worst in the highest density parts of them.

The first half of this seems to be right; the second half isn't supported by the evidence. The area directly to the northeast of Edmonton's central business district has (like in a lot of places with prevailing westerly winds) been economically disadvantaged basically from day one. One of the three neighbourhoods in this part of town is about twice as dense as the other two, but its crime rate per capita is between 25% and 40% lower than the other two neighbourhoods.

-Russ
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure
« Reply #89 on: June 15, 2021, 07:45:25 PM »

But if we read the U.S. Constitution,
and I do
Quote
there's a mandate for building "post roads." While the concept of "post roads" is ostensibly for the transport of postal mail, they also support commerce and military strategy.
it was about the mail, our founders valued mail.
Quote
The founders of this country were businessmen; I don't think the utility of post roads for commerce was lost on them.
Most were farmers and landowners, a few were craftsmen and even publishers (like Ben Franklin, who published a lot of his own uttering).
Quote
The Interstate Highway System, I think, perfectly embodies the dream of the founders -- and not just for getting the mail through.
I believe the former General Eisenhower was clear about his motivation (lessons learned in WWII with assets bogged down in the wrong places).
Quote
I believe the Constitution was originally written for the promotion and protection of free commerce.
Protect more than promote... that promotion is a much later mission creep (IMO).
Quote
Even the military bits are there to protect trade (which, when you think about it, is the purpose of almost every military action).
Protecting our interests, the marines were created to spank the Tripoli pirates, who are still pirates today, but prevented free trade back in the day. 
Quote
The Bill of Rights came about when they realized that individual liberties could be trampled in the pursuit of commerce -- and, without those protections, the pursuit of commerce could lead to fiefdoms and a fracturing of the union.
You are entitled to your own opinion. In my judgement the bill of rights was about protecting individual rights. The founders were most fearful of any concentration of government power.

A good book that reveals what the founders were thinking is the "Federalist Papers", essays they wrote at the time arguing for their personal preferences.

These guys were serious students of governance, and saw lots of systems that didn't work before ours.

JR
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Re: Battery-electric Road Vehicles and Energy Infrastructure
« Reply #89 on: June 15, 2021, 07:45:25 PM »


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