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[Steve Ball]

Hello,
I'm using 2 JBL SRX 828sp's and 2 JBL SRX 812sp's for my live sound with a Mackie DL1608. It looks like at some points I'm seeing my 812's clip especially when the lead singer is belting something out. Also, my bassist is asking for more bottom end from my system. He says he wants to feel it in his chest if he's out 50 feet in front of the subs. I'm not sure how to accomplish this. I'm a novice at this and love to help out my friends band by running FOH for them at certain shows but need some help from the ones who know. So I was asked to pose these question on this forum in hope of some expert replies.

I'd like to know if coming from my mixer to the subs and then into the 812's is the correct way of connecting this type of system together? I've seen several videos on youtube and other web sites.

I appreciate any help on this issue and setup.

Thank you in advance.
Steve

[Matthias McCready]

Hello,
I'm using 2 JBL SRX 828sp's and 2 JBL SRX 812sp's for my live sound with a Mackie DL1608. It looks like at some points I'm seeing my 812's clip especially when the lead singer is belting something out. Also, my bassist is asking for more bottom end from my system. He says he wants to feel it in his chest if he's out 50 feet in front of the subs. I'm not sure how to accomplish this. I'm a novice at this and love to help out my friends band by running FOH for them at certain shows but need some help from the ones who know. So I was asked to pose these question on this forum in hope of some expert replies.

I'd like to know if coming from my mixer to the subs and then into the 812's is the correct way of connecting this type of system together? I've seen several videos on youtube and other web sites.

I appreciate any help on this issue and setup.

Thank you in advance.
Steve

Hello Steve,

No great advice (that is for others to give); but have two quick recommendations (if you are not doing this already):

1: Make your 812's DSP is set so they are the with-sub mode (top box)? Forget the name. This will make sure they are not going too low and trying to work hard to what the subs can easily do; this should give them a little more horse power.
2: Place your subs together, rather than L+R. Will almost always give better, more even coverage. In addition it gives you some "free" dB. 

--

Also:

1) Is this indoors or outdoors?
2) What SPL are you trying to achieve?
3) What is the area (ft or meters) of what you are trying to cover?

[Luke Geis]

The clip meter on the 812's is a little pre-mature. They have soft limiting in them and as soon as that engages it illuminates the clip light even though you may not actually be clipping. I found that setting the 812's for the SRX SUB setting helps A LOT in freeing up some headroom. I also turn the master and input channel level all the way up. For the 828, you should use the SRX Top setting and turn the thing all the way up.

As to what your bassist wants, he can't have his cake and eat it too. Making your chest shake at 50' away from a basic PA is not going to happen and honestly for any gig in which a PA this size is employed, shouldn't be a goal. Tell him to get back on stage and play the bass and let you do your job. If he is the one paying your check, kindly give him the check back and go find someone else to work for. It isn't that it is impossible to achieve, it is simply not up to him to make it a requirement.

You can get a little more mileage from the subs by running them from an aux, known simply as Subs on an Aux. You can research the term if you don't already know what I am referring to and employ it if you choose. It free's up a little bit of headroom for the subs allowing you to turn the things of interest in them up a little more. But it won't get you from not enough to more than enough though. It will simply allow you perhaps 3-7db more, which may be enough to go from not enough to just barely enough.

You can try placing the subs together in the center of your bandstand. It will get you a little bit more oomph over a little more area, but it will also put much more low end on the stage, which may not help things. I won't say that it gives you free db's, mainly because you still have the same peak level potential, it is only that it smooths out the comb filtering that subs can have when they are separated, giving them a more even coverage over the dance floor. When the coverage is evened out, it seems like you are getting more output ( you aren't ), because no matter where you are, you can hear the sound more evenly.

[Tim McCulloch]

It will take 4x the subs to give the bass player what he wants.

[Steve Ball]

Hello Steve,

No great advice (that is for others to give); but have two quick recommendations (if you are not doing this already):

1: Make your 812's DSP is set so they are the with-sub mode (top box)? Forget the name. This will make sure they are not going too low and trying to work hard to what the subs can easily do; this should give them a little more horse power.
2: Place your subs together, rather than L+R. Will almost always give better, more even coverage. In addition it gives you some "free" dB. 

--

Also:

1) Is this indoors or outdoors?
2) What SPL are you trying to achieve?
3) What is the area (ft or meters) of what you are trying to cover?

Hi Matthias,
I do have my tops set  to sub mode.
I have tried both placing the subs together and apart. I do like them together better but in some instance I need to separate them.
This has been mostly for outdoor events but on occasion it is an indoor event.
I'm not real worried about what the bassist wants, I'm just after a full overall sound for the band.
Several times people tell me they sound very good so I'm taking that as a reflection on what I'm doing. :-)
From my explanation of connections, does that sem correct or is there another way?
Thanks again

[Steve Ball]

The clip meter on the 812's is a little pre-mature. They have soft limiting in them and as soon as that engages it illuminates the clip light even though you may not actually be clipping. I found that setting the 812's for the SRX SUB setting helps A LOT in freeing up some headroom. I also turn the master and input channel level all the way up. For the 828, you should use the SRX Top setting and turn the thing all the way up.

As to what your bassist wants, he can't have his cake and eat it too. Making your chest shake at 50' away from a basic PA is not going to happen and honestly for any gig in which a PA this size is employed, shouldn't be a goal. Tell him to get back on stage and play the bass and let you do your job. If he is the one paying your check, kindly give him the check back and go find someone else to work for. It isn't that it is impossible to achieve, it is simply not up to him to make it a requirement.

You can get a little more mileage from the subs by running them from an aux, known simply as Subs on an Aux. You can research the term if you don't already know what I am referring to and employ it if you choose. It free's up a little bit of headroom for the subs allowing you to turn the things of interest in them up a little more. But it won't get you from not enough to more than enough though. It will simply allow you perhaps 3-7db more, which may be enough to go from not enough to just barely enough.

You can try placing the subs together in the center of your bandstand. It will get you a little bit more oomph over a little more area, but it will also put much more low end on the stage, which may not help things. I won't say that it gives you free db's, mainly because you still have the same peak level potential, it is only that it smooths out the comb filtering that subs can have when they are separated, giving them a more even coverage over the dance floor. When the coverage is evened out, it seems like you are getting more output ( you aren't ), because no matter where you are, you can hear the sound more evenly.

Hi Luke,
I love some of your responses.

I've heard of using an aux but honestly, I'm not sure how that is done. I'm quite the novice in all this but want to learn.
Thanks
Steve

[Luke Geis]

Your bassist has unrealistic expectations given the scale of what you're working with. Subs on an aux is a concept that when employed to the fullest extent can free up as much as 10db, but that is going to extremes. It still won't make your rig go from meh to hell yeah brother. It does allow a little more granular control over your mix. But it is not a concept that is learned overnight, nor perfected in the course of a single show. You have to adopt it, adapt it, and own it.

[Matthias McCready]

Hi Matthias,
I do have my tops set  to sub mode.
I have tried both placing the subs together and apart. I do like them together better but in some instance I need to separate them.
This has been mostly for outdoor events but on occasion it is an indoor event.
I'm not real worried about what the bassist wants, I'm just after a full overall sound for the band.
Several times people tell me they sound very good so I'm taking that as a reflection on what I'm doing. :-)
From my explanation of connections, does that sem correct or is there another way?
Thanks again

Steve,

Glad to hear you are already on top of those aspects, sounds like you are connecting things right. I think you are doing what you can.

To the point doing things outside tends to sound great (tends to be few pesky reflections or room nodes not being in a room), however as you know that also means the sound keeps traveling; meaning you often need more rig, especially in the sub department.

I like the 828 a lot for what is (I own a powered SRX 812/828 myself), however it is still a fairly small rig. The way I see it for you, either the band can adjust their expectations, or they can foot the bill for the rental of larger more appropriate rig.

As far as subs on Aux vs Not; both are valid options. Personally I tend to runs things on an aux these days (mixing mostly music); that being said the system is still relatively flat.

As far as how to setup an Aux. You tops still get your main LR feed (which should get about everything) and your sub gets everything from an aux. So for example your sub aux might only be a (post fader) send from your kick, bass, and iTunes.

Otherwise your sub there is receiving every source (guitars, vocal mics, keys etc) and many of those sources will be sending some amount of low-frequencies that occupy space and headroom for what your sub can do. Even if you use Hi-pass filters on everything (as you should), these filters are a curve rather than brick wall frequency cut-off; meaning that you will still get some amount of frequencies below them.

---

Additionally as you are hitting clip when your vocalist is belting; are you by chance using compressors on your channels?

If you haven't they are good thing to learn, especially for vocals. A good starting place is to be hitting about -6dB of reduction when the vocalist is belting. For most compressors that is the place where it is doing some work, but the artifacts will not be as noticeable. Some very dynamic singers may require more, and the artifacts can be worth not having your head torn off  They are a good way to manage volume changes.

Not sure what your monitoring situation is, but I would recommend sending that pre-comp (for vocals at least)

--

Bottom line regarding your rig; it is a decent one. There are some boxes that sound better yes, there are many boxes that sound much worse. As long as you are using your SRX rig within its limits (SPL/coverage) they are great sounding boxes, that can provide a detailed mix. So whether the mix makes people weep tears of joy or pull out their hair is up to you (and the band). Sounds like people have been liking what you have been doing so far though, so keep it up!

Matthias

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