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[dave briar]

This is likely the first of a series of topics I’ll post about over the next few months regarding the remodel of the venue I work.  We will be taking out a central wall and increasing capacity of the main venue from ~300 to ~450-500 ppl.  There will be a new PA, stage, mix booth, and acoustic treatments. 

The question we are currently pondering is whether we should even bother to install a new copper snake from the mix booth to the stage.  We currently have an essentially unused 24x8 EWI snake installed but for the past six years have relied primarily on a pair of cat5 lines to an A&H digital stagebox. We considered pulling the existing copper snake for reuse but the owner says it was intricately woven through walls/joists/rafters under the finish work and would be more costly in time and materials to remove than replace.  A new 100’ one from Audiopile appears to run $645 — not a huge sum to be sure. However,  in the seven and a half years I’ve been mixing there I can’t remember a single instance where a visiting BE brought their own console and asked to use our analog snake.  Of course at a 300 cap we don’t get that many visiting BEs to begin with let alone ones carrying their own console.  Not sure if increasing to a 500 cap will change that equation — probably not would be my guess but...

So I guess my question is, if it were you, what would you do?  Install new copper just to cover all bases?  I mean $645 in a $400-500k remodel is not a deal breaker.   Also, for anyone with experience working as a house engineer/tech at a ~500 cap venue, how many visiting BEs do you typically see?  Do any request copper?  Any thoughts/perspective would be dearly appreciated.

Note: We will be installing 3-4 cat5(6?) lines to stage with at least one being shielded Ethercon for the X32 world. Likely also a 4-channel fan-to-fan copper just for a few connections. There will be an accessible 4” conduit between the new stage and mix booth should we decide on other options in the future.

[Ed Hall]

This is likely the first of a series of topics I’ll post about over the next few months regarding the remodel of the venue I work.  We will be taking out a central wall and increasing capacity of the main venue from ~300 to ~450-500 ppl. 

...

Note: We will be installing 3-4 cat5(6?) lines to stage with at least one being shielded Ethercon for the X32 world. Likely also a 4-channel fan-to-fan copper just for a few connections. There will be an accessible 4” conduit between the new stage and mix booth should we decide on other options in the future.

Have an accessible chase or conduit that is an easy pull for traveling shows. If they're at the level that they're bringing their own console, they're likely not going to want to trust their show to your snake, digital or analog. They will want to run their own that they know is in good repair and works. Make it easy to run that from stage to FOH.

[Steve-White]

Have an accessible chase or conduit that is an easy pull for traveling shows. If they're at the level that they're bringing their own console, they're likely not going to want to trust their show to your snake, digital or analog. They will want to run their own that they know is in good repair and works. Make it easy to run that from stage to FOH.

Great answer - leave a pull cord in it all the time.

What size conduit?  I'm thinking 3" to 4" to be sure.

[Mike Caldwell]

Great answer - leave a pull cord in it all the time.

What size conduit?  I'm thinking 3" to 4" to be sure.

If someone pulls an copper snake of any good size channel count with an attached fan tail it will
not fit in a 3 inch and maybe not even a 4 inch conduit.

About how many feet would it be to take the long way around from the stage to FOH maybe using an open channel to drop the cables in, make it like part of the wood work up and over doors ect,

[dave briar]

Have an accessible chase or conduit that is an easy pull for traveling shows. If they're at the level that they're bringing their own console, they're likely not going to want to trust their show to your snake, digital or analog. They will want to run their own that they know is in good repair and works. Make it easy to run that from stage to FOH.

Excellent advice.  I’ll keep that in mind when we route the 4” conduit.

[dave briar]

Great answer - leave a pull cord in it all the time.

What size conduit?  I'm thinking 3" to 4" to be sure.

We were considering 8” when we thought we could go underground from stage to booth but the excavation part of the remodel is no longer in the plans so we have to go overhead with 4”.

[Mal Brown]

A big part of me says run new copper as the holy crap recovery plan.  Along with a ton of cat 5/6 that is actually going to be used.  I really can't imagine a B level act with a BE that is still using copper.

[dave briar]

If someone pulls an copper snake of any good size channel count with an attached fan tail it will
not fit in a 3 inch and maybe not even a 4 inch conduit.

Agreed.

About how many feet would it be to take the long way around from the stage to FOH maybe using an open channel to drop the cables in, make it like part of the wood work up and over doors ect,

That 200’(?) route would certainly be possible but quite inconvenient.  I think I can provide easy access for bands to run network cables overhead but not a full snake. Are any bands that play 500 cap clubs hauling copper these days?

[Russell Ault]

A big part of me says run new copper as the holy crap recovery plan.  Along with a ton of cat 5/6 that is actually going to be used.  I really can't imagine a B level act with a BE that is still using copper.

If you're running a ton of extra Cat6, why bother pulling multicore too? The Cat6 will do a plenty good enough job carrying analogue audio, be more flexible in how it can be used, and cost less to boot...

-Russ

[Brian Bolly]

In addition to whatever you need for in-house production equipment+spares, I would put the following:

• 6-8 CAT6A shielded lines between stage/FOH
• 6-8 strands SMF for the video folks (might add $1/ft to the project cost - not much)
• 6-8 audio tie lines wired with 110 ohm cable
• 6-8 4K video lines on BNC

I would also add a couple video/net/fiber lines to stage from a few key camera positions around the room, whether you're putting in cameras or not.  A 2 gang signal plate at the camera point should be sufficient (+ power), and then you can cross patch at the stage panel to sent to FOH if necessary.

Does your venue have a bus/truck dock?  A handful of lines from stage to back there as well.

All of the above should take up only a small Hoffman box or 4-6 RU of space at either FOH or Stage locations.  A little more at the stage location if it's receiving the field lines from camera drops and truck dock.

A 500 cap room, depending on the booking agent, starts to get into the realm of folks carrying some production.  While Audio will almost never use house lines (your trough/pipe will be handy here), more often than not I've seen Video using house tie lines if available.  And after (because of?) the last year, I've seen more video requests/demands, even at a lower level of touring.  Make sure you have a kit of adapters/couplers for everything and cleaners for the fiber, and a simple list and line/location diagram showing patch availability that's part of the venue advance.

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