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Author Topic: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs  (Read 1476 times)

Steve Litscher

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Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2021, 12:26:19 pm »


I was thinking a bout the BC218 (the BC415 seems to have more output, but the BC218 digs deeper and 2 benefits from forward directivity)
Some M-force cabinets from DAS
Kraken from Bassboss
RCF 9007
JTR Captivator 4000 ( not really a PA sub, but the extension is insane)

Any others I should put on my demo radar?

Unless you need to go below 25Hz, I'd skip the JTR C4000 and go with the C218 Pro. It'll do 27Hz all day long at good volume.

Russell Ault

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Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2021, 02:31:10 pm »

Yah, the problem is finding response graphs. Does anyone have responses of BC218, Meyers VLFC and 1100? I was trying to look on their websites to see what I'd be working with measurement wise to rule some out.

Officially, Meyer doesn't publish graphs because they feel it's too easy to produce ones that are misleading; instead they publish MAPP (for free) so that you can generate your own graphs using super-high-resolution 3D anechoic measurements of their speakers. I believe Danley takes the same approach with their software.

For reference, I've attached quick-and-dirty measurements from MAPP XT of both the 1100-LFC and VLFC at ~1m (and you can really see what Ivan is talking about regarding frequency and level), but your best would be to grab MAPP and Danley's Polar Pattern Explorer and play around with them.

-Russ
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Matthias McCready

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Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2021, 03:31:58 pm »

Officially, Meyer doesn't publish graphs because they feel it's too easy to produce ones that are misleading; instead they publish MAPP (for free) so that you can generate your own graphs using super-high-resolution 3D anechoic measurements of their speakers. I believe Danley takes the same approach with their software.

For reference, I've attached quick-and-dirty measurements from MAPP XT of both the 1100-LFC and VLFC at ~1m (and you can really see what Ivan is talking about regarding frequency and level), but your best would be to grab MAPP and Danley's Polar Pattern Explorer and play around with them.

-Russ

To quote Merlijn Van Veen (as I encountered the same phenomenon).

"The VLFC, the only time I have heard a stadium cheer for the subs."

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Doug Fowler

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Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2021, 04:01:15 pm »

Yah, the problem is finding response graphs. Does anyone have responses of BC218, Meyers VLFC and 1100? I was trying to look on their websites to see what I'd be working with measurement wise to rule some out.

Here is my near field measurement of a ZV-28 from a few years back, see attached.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2021, 08:13:53 am »

Yah, the problem is finding response graphs. Does anyone have responses of BC218-------------,
All of the response graphs for Danley products are on the spec sheets on the website.  As well as the measurement conditions

Here is a link to the BC218

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/BC-218-spec-sheet-2.pdf
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Ivan Beaver
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Johnathan Cappers

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Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2021, 12:43:35 pm »

All of the response graphs for Danley products are on the spec sheets on the website.  As well as the measurement conditions

Here is a link to the BC218

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/BC-218-spec-sheet-2.pdf

Yo, Ivan this helps a heap! You DA MAN!
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Johnathan Cappers

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Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2021, 12:58:17 pm »

Officially, Meyer doesn't publish graphs because they feel it's too easy to produce ones that are misleading; instead they publish MAPP (for free) so that you can generate your own graphs using super-high-resolution 3D anechoic measurements of their speakers. I believe Danley takes the same approach with their software.

For reference, I've attached quick-and-dirty measurements from MAPP XT of both the 1100-LFC and VLFC at ~1m (and you can really see what Ivan is talking about regarding frequency and level), but your best would be to grab MAPP and Danley's Polar Pattern Explorer and play around with them.


Russ, I'm just trying to get a brief understanding of what I'm looking at so I can adjust calculations because I see 2 measurements of Distance...1 for 33ft, another for 20ft. Is this a 1m sensitivity graph?

-Russ
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Russell Ault

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Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2021, 03:51:47 pm »

Russ, I'm just trying to get a brief understanding of what I'm looking at so I can adjust calculations because I see 2 measurements of Distance...1 for 33ft, another for 20ft. Is this a 1m sensitivity graph?

Both "measurements" were taken with the microphone ~1m (this was quick-and-dirty, so I think the actual distance was 3.33') from the grill of the speaker. I believe the "Approximate Distance" number shown is extrapolated from the "Peak Impulse" time of the measurement (i.e. distance = speed time) which, at these frequencies, is lagging well behind the actual distance's time-of-flight.

If you haven't already done so, I'd really encourage you to download MAPP (and other manufacturer's software); it's a good way to quickly examine aspects of how speakers operate that the specs alone won't tell you.

-Russ
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Peter Morris

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Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2021, 06:54:41 pm »

Both "measurements" were taken with the microphone ~1m (this was quick-and-dirty, so I think the actual distance was 3.33') from the grill of the speaker. I believe the "Approximate Distance" number shown is extrapolated from the "Peak Impulse" time of the measurement (i.e. distance = speed time) which, at these frequencies, is lagging well behind the actual distance's time-of-flight.

If you haven't already done so, I'd really encourage you to download MAPP (and other manufacturer's software); it's a good way to quickly examine aspects of how speakers operate that the specs alone won't tell you.

-Russ

Just remember the fine print on Danley's spec sheet - those sensitivity measurements are 2.83 volts @ 2 ohms.  They are not the same as almost everyone else that measures at 1W (nominal i.e. 2.83 volt for 8 ohms or 2 volts for 4 ohms etc.)  @ 1M  ... think in terms of them being 4 watts 1 meter, or take 6 dB off  ... still impressive  :)
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2021, 07:30:56 pm »

Just remember the fine print on Danley's spec sheet - those sensitivity measurements are 2.83 volts @ 2 ohms.  They are not the same as almost everyone else that measures at 1W (nominal i.e. 2.83 volt for 8 ohms or 2 volts for 4 ohms etc.)  @ 1M  ... think in terms of them being 4 watts 1 meter, or take 6 dB off  ... still impressive  :)
The reason for 2.83V is that you can apply 2.83V to a loudspeaker.

You cannot apply 1 watt to a loud speaker because the impedance varies all over the place, so you would have to apply a special curve with varying voltage in order to get 1 watt.  And then the freq response would be all messed up.

And the actual impedance may not be a standard 2,4,8 ohms.

As usual, it is not a simple situation.

By applying a constant voltage to all models, it makes it easier to compare actual sensitivity with a constant source.

As with other things audio, a simple answer results in a wrong answer.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: In the market for low playing, high spl, subs
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2021, 07:30:56 pm »


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