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Author Topic: Creative Distortion  (Read 2602 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Creative Distortion
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2021, 09:30:58 am »

Huge caveats here: "We just want it to sound like the record". In a different space with a different acoustic signature. With a different noise floor. At a different SPL level.
The features were added to big dog touring consoles so major talent can replicate effects used on their popular recordings...

The same caveat applies to sound reinforcement.

JR
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Creative Distortion
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2021, 06:30:30 pm »

The features were added to big dog touring consoles so major talent can replicate effects used on their popular recordings...

The same caveat applies to sound reinforcement.

JR


Wasn't the Rivage the first to make "big deal" out of the tool emulation?  I am just thinking back to the advertising.  I have never even seen a Rivage, shows you what shallow waters I wade in.


I have been meaning to try the tube channel strips on the impact server (didn't I get that from you Tim) but have not yet.  So far the only plug in I use is dynamic EQ and multiband C3 compressor. 
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Matthias McCready

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Re: Creative Distortion
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2021, 10:10:34 pm »


Wasn't the Rivage the first to make "big deal" out of the tool emulation?  I am just thinking back to the advertising.  I have never even seen a Rivage, shows you what shallow waters I wade in.


I have been meaning to try the tube channel strips on the impact server (didn't I get that from you Tim) but have not yet.  So far the only plug in I use is dynamic EQ and multiband C3 compressor. 

Scott my favorite "budget" option is just throwing a metal zone on every insert  :o ;D ;D ;D ;D

You know you have everything "dialed-in" right, when the crowd is nothing but people in baggy black clothing with dreads. hahaha
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Creative Distortion
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2021, 03:06:08 am »

Scott my favorite "budget" option is just throwing a metal zone on every insert  :o ;D ;D ;D ;D

You know you have everything "dialed-in" right, when the crowd is nothing but people in baggy black clothing with dreads. hahaha


I have seen that crowd.  Years ago I took a club gig that I had to mix monitors and FOH.  Both analog Peavey desks from the early 80's.  The lead singer kept asking for changes over the PA and I had to cross the mosh pit to get to the monitor mixer to tweak this guys settings.  This happened 3 or 4 times then I just shook my head.  The guy gets on the PA and says "it really sucks when your sound man fucks your performance up on purpose" I thought I was going to get killed.  That was a learning experience.


Your comments were funny but the real truth is I don't have any clients that have offered to pay me to bring external plug in's.  Why would I go through the trouble of possibly having a worse mix, a technical issue with something I am not super familiar with when not only is it not compensated I am sure nobody would care.  Pay me for it and I will invest in a redundant server and spend the time to learn to use the tech properly. 

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Creative Distortion
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2021, 08:30:47 am »


I have seen that crowd.  Years ago I took a club gig that I had to mix monitors and FOH.  Both analog Peavey desks from the early 80's.  The lead singer kept asking for changes over the PA and I had to cross the mosh pit to get to the monitor mixer to tweak this guys settings.  This happened 3 or 4 times then I just shook my head.  The guy gets on the PA and says "it really sucks when your sound man fucks your performance up on purpose" I thought I was going to get killed.  That was a learning experience.


Your comments were funny but the real truth is I don't have any clients that have offered to pay me to bring external plug in's.  Why would I go through the trouble of possibly having a worse mix, a technical issue with something I am not super familiar with when not only is it not compensated I am sure nobody would care.  Pay me for it and I will invest in a redundant server and spend the time to learn to use the tech properly.
The use of studio efx live that I was referring to would be big dog talent, that carry their own mix engineer on the road.
==
I am not describing what typically happens in your world, just talking about the technology, that I haven't been in the same room with for a couple decades.  8)

JR
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Matthias McCready

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Re: Creative Distortion
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2021, 09:56:45 am »


Your comments were funny but the real truth is I don't have any clients that have offered to pay me to bring external plug in's.  Why would I go through the trouble of possibly having a worse mix, a technical issue with something I am not super familiar with when not only is it not compensated I am sure nobody would care.  Pay me for it and I will invest in a redundant server and spend the time to learn to use the tech properly.

Absolutely agree with this.  :)

Personally I am doing almost no one off's anymore (political or other) and have settled in working as an ME at a church. They provide a DiGiCo and Waves setup; so dive I do. Not always quite as fun as road stuff; but the hours are great, the cheques are consistent, and there are very few surprises (like a Semi not showing up or something). I can't complain.   :D
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Art Welter

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Re: Creative Distortion
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2021, 01:05:21 pm »

The features were added to big dog touring consoles so major talent can replicate effects used on their popular recordings...
JR,

The features aren't limited to "big dog touring consoles", "cheap" mixers like the Midas M32r have loads of emulations inspired by analog classics.

In terms of dollars adjusted for inflation, the cost of any one of the real devices would be far more than the cost of the console.

Some of the M32r built in devices:

"Dual Fair Comp": tube compressor like the Fairchild 670.
"Dual Leisure Comp" tube compressor like the Teletronix LA-2A.
 "Dual Xtec EQ1"  transformers and tube output like the Pultec EQP-1a.
"Dual Ultimo Comp " FET compressor like the Urei 1176LN.
"Dual Tube Stage" like modern and classic tube amps.
"Dual Enhancer" "psychoacoustic" tube equalization like the SPL Vitalizer.

It's possible to get a good idea of what the classics sound like without much money spent.
If you want to smell the real tube sound, you have to pay more  8)

Art


« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 01:10:24 pm by Art Welter »
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Creative Distortion
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2021, 03:24:58 pm »

JR,

The features aren't limited to "big dog touring consoles", "cheap" mixers like the Midas M32r have loads of emulations inspired by analog classics.
This is the typical evolution of big console features filtering down into cheaper consoles. They are added not because the customers really want/need them, but because they could inexpensively. More features equals more perceived value.
Quote
In terms of dollars adjusted for inflation, the cost of any one of the real devices would be far more than the cost of the console.

Some of the M32r built in devices:

"Dual Fair Comp": tube compressor like the Fairchild 670.
"Dual Leisure Comp" tube compressor like the Teletronix LA-2A.
 "Dual Xtec EQ1"  transformers and tube output like the Pultec EQP-1a.
"Dual Ultimo Comp " FET compressor like the Urei 1176LN.
"Dual Tube Stage" like modern and classic tube amps.
"Dual Enhancer" "psychoacoustic" tube equalization like the SPL Vitalizer.

It's possible to get a good idea of what the classics sound like without much money spent.
If you want to smell the real tube sound, you have to pay more  8)

Art
With a powerful enough processor that is all just software... i.e. really cheap assuming the sunk cost of development is already covered. 

I wish that stuff was this cheap back last century when I was shoehorning crude digital efx into powered mixers.

Sorry, personal whine...

JR

PS One could debate wether it gives a "good" idea of what classic tube efx sound like, or just a hint. If old (tube) stuff was good just because it's old, I'd be golden. 
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Art Welter

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Re: Creative Distortion
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2021, 06:46:51 pm »

I wish that stuff was this cheap back last century when I was shoehorning crude digital efx into powered mixers.

PS One could debate wether it gives a "good" idea of what classic tube efx sound like, or just a hint. If old (tube) stuff was good just because it's old, I'd be golden.
Having used enough of the classic tube gear, in my opinion Midas and other current emulations are certainly "close enough for rock & roll" (or jazz...) to say they give more than a "hint" of what tube stuff sounds like.

While the "face plate" settings on analog or digital emulations often won't result in the same sound, with a little twiddling you can get near the same effect.

The classic tube/transformer coupled analog devices required the correct termination to perform "properly"- the way they sound with one console/recorder was not the same as any other with different insert or output devices (or impedance), and the series chain we hear recorded is a sum of many parts. No way to even set up an A/B test to satisfy an analog purist.

Even if the A/B test could be done, variations in tubes produced over the last 64 years (my age- tubes go back a lot further) and how they have aged, along with capacitors, and individual's hearing would still make the debate endless.

Art







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Roland Clarke

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Re: Creative Distortion
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2021, 10:35:44 pm »

Saturation, Distortion, Tape Emulation, whatever you want to call it. It's a favorite trick of the home recording crowd to make something sound bigger or louder in a mix. It is often overdone.


I use the Yamaha Tape "Open Deck" on both drums and keys. I send the drums to a stereo buss and insert open deck. Dial it up until it seems like it's doing something then back it off a tad. Send that to the mix. I often also run a light compression on the buss as a sort of "glue".

I do the same with key rigs. It helps give a hint of authenticity to digital keys by passing those "too clean and perfect" synth patches through some kind of distortion.

I totally agree.  In live sound terms, I think it is often of limited practical terms.  We are often working in venues, with less than ideal acoustics, speaker systems that however good they are, have other factors such as power compressions and distortion components a magnitude higher than many of these devices produce by design.  Add in screaming fans, things become a lot more prosaic.  I always suggest that people try at a sound check, with a relatively dense mix, putting a 1.5-3 kHz mid band eq on your money channel and wind the gain back and forth a few dB and see how relatively little effect it has within the mix.

A few years ago, I heard recording tests comparing several mic pres, that ranges in cost from a few pounds a channel to several thousand,  the differences were squintingly difficult to hear, under control room monitoring conditions and better or worse was highly subjective.
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Re: Creative Distortion
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2021, 10:35:44 pm »


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