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Author Topic: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic  (Read 3984 times)

Douglas R. Allen

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A lot of love for the IG4T's.   Curious if either of you have compared them to RCF NX24?

   Jay;

   I've never heard the RCF NX24's. So can't comment.

John Moore over at Trinity Pro Sound has done a full break down of both. I'll link the company and the 2 videos if you haven't seen them yet. I know he has owned and used both so maybe send his company an email.  I'm betting they would be close output wise but weight considerations may be the determining factor between them. Also the Ingenia line has 3 inch voice coil on the horn and 6.5 inch speakers, some vertical steering, delay,adjustable crossover, 3 band etc. features the RCF is lacking.

https://www.trinityprosound.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ_y9iCDypQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8pnoX5fPEg

Douglas R. Allen



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Mark Scrivener

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My two cents.
I have the IG4T, the DZR 12 and the DZR 10, and the Captivator 2 12.
I havenít mixed on the DSL stuff, but I have gigged with it.

I think the ďhigh end columnĒ sounds just as good as the 1 12 plus horn.
I havenít had either wide open, but suspect the DZR12 is louder.
I also think the SM80 sounds better than either, but not by much.
I prefer the Db IG4T to the DZR12 for how they sound.
I generally use 1 IG4T over 1 Captivator 212 for mains, Yamahaís for monitoring.

Iím in the same spot as you, 1 man rig, want good sound and easy set up.
I came in under budget, thanks to help from this websites members.
In the future, if I need more, looking to add 2 extra IG4Ts.
Am now thinking of the smallest Bassboss sub for drum wedge.
I could also use it as a single sub in conjunction with the 2DZR10s for a small rig.
Recently got a small board from Mike P. for just that purpose.
I really like the DZR10s!! Thanks Mike.

Interesting that the DZR12's might be louder than the IG4T's. Presumably doubling up the IG4T's would only get you a 3dB increase, or does it work differently with column speakers?

Also curious how you would describe the sound of the IG4T's to the DZR12's and how significant the difference is (to you). From what I can see, the IG4T's are about 50% more expensive (advertised price) than the DZR12's, so just trying to get a feel for what that buys you. Obviously the ability to double them up is one advantage, but so is having interchangeable mains and floor wedges.

Douglas R. Allen

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Interesting that the DZR12's might be louder than the IG4T's. Presumably doubling up the IG4T's would only get you a 3dB increase, or does it work differently with column speakers?

Also curious how you would describe the sound of the IG4T's to the DZR12's and how significant the difference is (to you). From what I can see, the IG4T's are about 50% more expensive (advertised price) than the DZR12's, so just trying to get a feel for what that buys you. Obviously the ability to double them up is one advantage, but so is having interchangeable mains and floor wedges.

I haven't measured my IG4T's couple but I did measure my IG2T's coupled. I found the output increased roughly 5db's or so full band pass. The frequency response was even down to the 120hz crossover set on them other than the measurement related to the speakers being off the ground. Please note unstacked single and stacked pair was on tripods so the height from the ground when there was 2 IG2T's stacked was effectively different so there is some uneven response in the bass range. I should have done a ground measurement but it was a very cold day pushing for time.

As far as output I've found their spec's are on if not a little on the conservative side. My 4T's and 2T's difference in output are exactly as stated in their spec sheet and the 4T's match and better the output of all the 15 and horn speakers I have in inventory.  I can't explain the sound difference but it is just not the same as a 15/Horn or even 12/Horn. Hard to describe but worth a demo.

https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=171900.0

https://www.harmonycentral.com/forums/topic/1932981-basic-db-ig4t-yorkville-ef500p-comparison/

Douglas R. Allen

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Brian Bolly

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I haven't measured my IG4T's couple but I did measure my IG2T's coupled.

I have to ask - was your delay time not set for these measurements, or is the phase response of that speaker genuinely that bad?
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Douglas R. Allen

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I have to ask - was your delay time not set for these measurements, or is the phase response of that speaker genuinely that bad?

   I was looking in the crossover area at that time. Phase of course is in relation to frequencies. The coupled speakers remained in phase with each other quite well clear up to the horn area. There is the Single speakers Phase Trace and the Combined speakers phase trace on at the same time. The horns centers are roughly 4 inches or so apart even when coupled so there is bound to be a timing issue in relation to microphone placement. A dip at 12 k is seen in the phase but not in the magnitude response. As you look at the magnitude response the 2 speakers coupled are very close with a 4.5 to 5+ db gain from 400 to 18k or so. If there was a major phase issue in that range it would have shown a bad magnitude response in that area with the coupled speakers.  If anything the response is somewhat smoothed out with the speakers coupled. The dip in response and uneven magnitude at 400hz with a phase difference as well could be related to the distance from the top woofer to the bottom one of about 4 feet or so and me dropping the speaker and measurement microphone down as the stack of 2 I felt was questionably unstable up as high as it was at first on a tripod. I didn't do another impulse response after I did that which was operator error on my part. I'd guess the boost at 250hz or so was the 4 - 8 inch drivers coupled well with each other and the ground. The roll off at 150hz or so the opposite of that.  Take any 15 inch and Horn speaker and set another exact same speaker on top of it upside down coupled like the IG2T's and look at what you get. ( I have ) you won't get this kind of phase / magnitude coupling. At least with all the ones I have tried. As with everything in life there is trade offs for every design. At this price point they couple well and sound great doing it.
   I don't have one for a IG2T speaker but the balloon response for a IG4T looks very good. Even compared to a SM80. ( Like everything it has to be taken with a grain of salt)
   This was a quick measurement to take a look on a very cold morning. I wasn't disappointed with the sound of them coupled. If anything I found they sounded like a single speaker just louder. Which is the intent of the design.

Douglas R. Allen

Edit: I may have misread your question. When I realized the double stack was unstable I looked at the Single speaker and Double Stack with no Impulse or set delay to peak if you will so this is yes with no alignment between reference and source.  I was at first thinking you were talking about the phase relationship between the single speaker and stacked speaker. I left my reply anyway.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 05:19:31 pm by Douglas R. Allen »
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Douglas R. Allen

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Interesting that the DZR12's might be louder than the IG4T's. Presumably doubling up the IG4T's would only get you a 3dB increase, or does it work differently with column speakers?

Also curious how you would describe the sound of the IG4T's to the DZR12's and how significant the difference is (to you). From what I can see, the IG4T's are about 50% more expensive (advertised price) than the DZR12's, so just trying to get a feel for what that buys you. Obviously the ability to double them up is one advantage, but so is having interchangeable mains and floor wedges.

Looking around I found this. It shows 1 IG4T going to coupled 2 yields a 4.5 db increase in spl average which is exactly what I found in my coupled IG2T. In my measurements I found in my IG2T's some area's that were higher than a 5 db and some around 4.5 db's so I'm thinking the IG4T is the same. I'm unsure if the dip around 1.2 khz is noticeable as a good thing or not. I have some time so I may just take my 4T's out and take a look and give them a listen.

Douglas R. Allen

Sorry for the post swerve.  EDIT:  I also never noted or measured such a drop in spl on the highest frequencies so I'm unsure how these measurements were done. Just an image I found online.

 
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 06:01:49 pm by Douglas R. Allen »
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Corey Scogin

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I have some time so I may just take my 4T's out and take a look and give them a listen. 

The vertical directivity plot of the IG4T shows a very narrow band roughly around the crossover region. I know the vertical isn't typically as important as the horizontal but in some situations, it comes into play.

Care to listen for that while you're out testing?
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Douglas R. Allen

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The vertical directivity plot of the IG4T shows a very narrow band roughly around the crossover region. I know the vertical isn't typically as important as the horizontal but in some situations, it comes into play.

Care to listen for that while you're out testing?

   Sure , of course the horn is Vertical Asymmetrical by design. Toward the top of the speakers horn lens the pattern is tighter and toward the bottom it is wider. I'm guessing depending on where the measurement was taken you could get different results? I honestly don't know.  1100 hz is not as high as some speakers horn to mid crossover frequencies but as you say it may effect the stand up sit down crowd. Do you know if this was 1 speaker or a coupled pair? If this is a single speaker I wonder how this would change with two? Where the 2 Asymmetrical horns may act different ?  This is the first time I've seen this plot. It's odd in all the years I've had my Ingenia speakers I've never noticed it. Maybe like a line array if you put pink noise on and walk around, stand or sit you'll notice differences but with music it's a moving target. I know through the years I've always seen them as a speaker a person should demo. It will either do what you want and you'll love them like I do or they won't fit your needs. They are a speaker that can be run as a single or coupled so the Asymmetrical Horn lens may be "part" of that design. Looking at the IG4 and IG2 comparison both have the dip around 270hz or so and the IG4T has that dip around 1.4 khz range. Both do fine up to 18k which is way above anything I can hear at my age. I'm sure you've seen all the Facebook video's where a pair of coupled IG3T's or 4T's can do a fairly good job. Even in windy conditions. To me the whole point though is to use one speaker a side for X size crowds and then couple 2 for Y size crowds as they were designed from the start to sound as good as practical in both applications. 

Douglas R. Allen

« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 08:23:07 pm by Douglas R. Allen »
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Corey Scogin

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   Sure , of course the horn is Vertical Asymmetrical by design. Toward the top of the speakers horn lens the pattern is tighter and toward the bottom it is wider. I'm guessing depending on where the measurement was taken you could get different results? I honestly don't know.  1100 hz is not as high as some speakers horn to mid crossover frequencies but as you say it may effect the stand up sit down crowd. Do you know if this was 1 speaker or a coupled pair? If this is a single speaker I wonder how this would change with two?

I'm not at all trying to cast aspersions at the series. I am genuinely curious how much the data lines up with real-world experience. The IG series has caught my eye for a long time. Everything's a tradeoff and most speakers have frequency/phase/dispersion oddities.

The plot I posted was captured from EASE GLL Viewer. You can download the EASE GLL Viewer software from EASE and the GLL files per-speaker from some manufacturers including DB Technologies.
The files contains measurement data and the software has several features for displaying it. It's good for comparing more than just spec numbers. It is, in the end, academic still. It doesn't tell you how good a speaker will sound subjectively. I also wouldn't trust the max SPL values you see there from all manufacturers. Load up the QSC K series and you'll see what I mean.
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Andrew Olsen

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Hi Doug,Jay,Corey,and all.

I have not had the Captivator + IG4T wide open yet.
Iím in clubs and small theaters. Outside is about the only
situation I can think of where I might need that much volume.

To answer Dougís question, I guess Iíd assume the sub would fart out
before the top, but with the Captivator, Iím not so sure.
Itís pretty punchy and tight, and plenty loud.

Iím just a bass player with a PA, so Iím way over my head with the
measurements and all. So take my 2 cents with a grain of salt.
The IG4T sounds rounder, and more pleasant,than the DZR 12.
The sound seems less focused, more all around. Sort of like a gig with
everyone on those Bose sticks.
But remember, Iím listening to break music, before the gig, during set up,
and hearing what I can, during the gig,after I set it and forget it!

Mark, I agree the price for the IG4Ts over the DZRs might not be justified.
I donít think they are twice as good as the Yamahas.
But they both are in a unique niche, not quite pro level, but not Guitar Center either.

Form function,size, weight, and sound, all work for me.
Iím amazed at how good the bass sounds, in both really, but especially the DZR12.
I can get the IG4T above an audienceís head easily. If I start running sound for others,
the combination of 2 IG4T a side seems like a winner. That would be LOUD!

But back to Coreyís original point.
Doubt either of these get you into SM80/TH18 territory,
but for backyard party gigs, heck yea!
The Yamaha sub is probably fine, 15 or 18. Not knocking it, but havenít heard it.
Db Technology probably has great subs too. Doubt itís at Meyer level, but still?

Funny, I have never heard or seen an RCF product yet. Love to !

There is a old Meyer rig on Craigslist in MN for $3,000.00.
4 subs, 9 tops, riggings and 3 processors. No amps, if anyone is interested.
Thanks!
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