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Author Topic: Help with evening out sub in an amphi  (Read 1531 times)

Miguel Dahl

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Re: Help with evening out sub in an amphi
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2021, 04:15:18 pm »

Is it possible to scoot the subs forward to under the middle of the seating, when it's pulled out?
This would de-couple them from the back wall, put them closer to the center of the listening area, and away from FOH.
Then you could turn them down, since they would be closer to most of the audience.

No, because bad things will happen when someone decides to pull the amfpi in. That's why I said earlier that they stay where they are, don't want to gamble with that.
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John Hiemburg

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Re: Help with evening out sub in an amphi
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2021, 04:45:15 pm »

Regarding your drawing, I just want to go on record and say I think "MUCH SUB" should be a new system descriptor.


'How would you like your system designed, sir?'
"Much sub."
'Sorry, what was that?'
"MUCH SUB."


Or maybe it would be a good name for an events company serving DJ's and such...

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Don T. Williams

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Re: Help with evening out sub in an amphi
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2021, 06:33:24 pm »

I have no idea if this would work and it might not but . . . . I might try setting one sub facing up on top of the other sub laying down parallel with the floor.  I would then experiment with reversing the polarity between the two and delaying the signal of the reverse polarity sub.  You might have to use blocks to lift the upward facing sub to clear the input connectors.  I would try different times between 2 and 6 ms in 1 ms steps while listening to music with reasonable bass content throughout the room.  This is similar to making a cardiod sub stack.  I don't know of a way to model this (it can probably be done) and it may not do anything ,or anything good.  You have an interesting problem.  This assumes you have two amp channels for the subs and time delay available for one of the channels.  I think it will steer the bass somewhere, I just don't where it will steer it and what the room will do with the bass.
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Help with evening out sub in an amphi
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2021, 11:04:31 pm »

If I am interpreting this correctly the subs are underneath a retractable bleacher type of seating area. Since you say that this is a theater, are the subs for SXF or playback only? Do you have any photographs of the room including what the ceiling looks like that you can post here? Are these subs used when the seating is fully retracted? What are they used for in the different configurations of this room? What are the walls made of and what is the ceiling and the floor made of? Is this space used for sports at all?
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Miguel Dahl

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Re: Help with evening out sub in an amphi
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2021, 02:20:27 pm »

If I am interpreting this correctly the subs are underneath a retractable bleacher type of seating area. Since you say that this is a theater, are the subs for SXF or playback only? Do you have any photographs of the room including what the ceiling looks like that you can post here? Are these subs used when the seating is fully retracted? What are they used for in the different configurations of this room? What are the walls made of and what is the ceiling and the floor made of? Is this space used for sports at all?

Yes, you are right. Pardon my crappy terminology. This is a plain theatre with a retractable seating area. No straight up bands (except for if it's a part of a theatrical-play), it's just theatre. So the subs are there to reproduce whatever should be reproduced, tracks/FX from Qlab, or the occasional live drummer/band member.

This might sound dumb, but I don't want to post pictures of my workplace.

I forgot to take pics of what the ceiling looks like, but it's somewhat dampened off, it's not rigid. The walls however are rigid surfaces relative to sub-frequencies, I don't know if there's any traps built in, but I doubt it. Either way, the room sounds like it should when you enter it and take a look around. Lobes, but somewhat tight though.

There's nothing nasty or weird going on which would be a major "This room sounds horrible -said the complaining band tech" to deal with. The room in it self sounds good. Quite dampened overall with a decent RT60 which can be manipulated for the upper mids and up due to thick curtains which can cover all walls. There's no massive wall-slamming sub-energy, it's just that that particular energy is unevenly distributed in the seating.

The retractable seating absorbs some energy since it's not a sports-arena bleacher type-seating, but has proper seats like one would have in a theatre, you don't get a sore ass and feel the need to shift positions every fifteen minutes like going to a sports event.

The seating is afaik never retracted, unless maybe for popcorn cleaning underneath the seating, only partially for photo-days, so photo and video have some more elbow-room on the floor. But I know that if I'd move the subs out from the back wall, then the first day I'm off work someone would decide to retract them all the way in for some one in a million reason. Maybe "We need to let the cleaners clean under the seating, it happens once in a year and today is the day".
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 02:24:57 pm by Miguel Dahl »
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: Help with evening out sub in an amphi
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2021, 02:45:29 pm »

With such a big compromise in sub placement I would try these things:

1: Run the PA full-range and add inn the subs on an aux for some "reinforcement". With a little luck your mains "might" put out enough low-end for this to work.
2: Move the subs. 

If #1 doesn't work and #2 makes someone mad, I'd just turn down the subs to an acceptable level for the rear of the room and call it a day if I  wanted to keep the job. I can add in that I'm willing to put my job on the line for #2. I don't like to mix on compromised systems, it's ok for a one-off, but for a permanent installation there has to be some serious up-sides to that gig before I would accept a compromise like the one described in this thread. If I sense that #2 is impossible due to "management issues", I'd politely back out of  the door and look for something else to do.
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Miguel Dahl

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Re: Help with evening out sub in an amphi
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2021, 03:25:49 pm »

With such a big compromise in sub placement I would try these things:

1: Run the PA full-range and add inn the subs on an aux for some "reinforcement". With a little luck your mains "might" put out enough low-end for this to work.
2: Move the subs. 

If #1 doesn't work and #2 makes someone mad, I'd just turn down the subs to an acceptable level for the rear of the room and call it a day if I  wanted to keep the job. I can add in that I'm willing to put my job on the line for #2. I don't like to mix on compromised systems, it's ok for a one-off, but for a permanent installation there has to be some serious up-sides to that gig before I would accept a compromise like the one described in this thread. If I sense that #2 is impossible due to "management issues", I'd politely back out of  the door and look for something else to do.

It's not that bad as you describe. I don't want to turn down the subs since most of the area is getting what it should be, it's just those fewer seats which are getting more. But it's not ridiculously more to the point that people would think that this is way off. It more than what I like, but not so much that people would think that there's something "wrong". And, people are seated, they don't move around.

All rehearsals are done with the FOH moved to the centre of the audience area, so it's dialed in from that location, then moved up for show, and just stick with whatever one has done during rehearsals even if it's more sub at the "show-FOH-location".

Before I decided to finally just do something to the system after I started working there the tuning in that room it was a spectacular mess. One-note wonder in the subs, delays double the time as needed, an in general some weirdness. Did some overall improvements and want to see if I can improve it some more, but now I'm down to mainly physics since we're talking about the subs and the limited freedom I have when it comes to spacing.

Like spacing out the subs, I haven't tried that, like I said, more lobes but maybe less difference in amplitude. For example.

I'd rather stick with "much sub" in the back, than giving the majority of the audience a more lackluster sonic experience, I'll sacrifice a few seats for the majority, since it's not overwhelminly nasty much sub in the seats where it's "much sub", it's just a bit to much to my personal liking, but some musicians has also complained, I just told my colleague (which is the board-operator of that particular show) to tell them that's how it is, take a seat further down in the seating and listen again, this is physics, unfortunately.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 03:40:26 pm by Miguel Dahl »
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Help with evening out sub in an amphi
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2021, 04:57:56 pm »

Yes, you are right. Pardon my crappy terminology. This is a plain theatre with a retractable seating area. No straight up bands (except for if it's a part of a theatrical-play), it's just theatre. So the subs are there to reproduce whatever should be reproduced, tracks/FX from Qlab, or the occasional live drummer/band member.

This might sound dumb, but I don't want to post pictures of my workplace.

I forgot to take pics of what the ceiling looks like, but it's somewhat dampened off, it's not rigid. The walls however are rigid surfaces relative to sub-frequencies, I don't know if there's any traps built in, but I doubt it. Either way, the room sounds like it should when you enter it and take a look around. Lobes, but somewhat tight though.

There's nothing nasty or weird going on which would be a major "This room sounds horrible -said the complaining band tech" to deal with. The room in it self sounds good. Quite dampened overall with a decent RT60 which can be manipulated for the upper mids and up due to thick curtains which can cover all walls. There's no massive wall-slamming sub-energy, it's just that that particular energy is unevenly distributed in the seating.

The retractable seating absorbs some energy since it's not a sports-arena bleacher type-seating, but has proper seats like one would have in a theatre, you don't get a sore ass and feel the need to shift positions every fifteen minutes like going to a sports event.

The seating is afaik never retracted, unless maybe for popcorn cleaning underneath the seating, only partially for photo-days, so photo and video have some more elbow-room on the floor. But I know that if I'd move the subs out from the back wall, then the first day I'm off work someone would decide to retract them all the way in for some one in a million reason. Maybe "We need to let the cleaners clean under the seating, it happens once in a year and today is the day".

So the subs are butt kickers. Some people have already suggested hanging the speakers but you seem to have rejected that. I donít know exactly why and I am wondering if it is a physical issue or a political one or what. Are the Meyer 600HP subs the model that has hang points on them? This is why I was looking for a picture and especially of the ceiling. I donít know if you are aware of the unbelievable flexibility that you have in placement for your needs. There is one theater that I work in regularly that has 1 sub tucked way up house right on the proscenium wall almost touching the ceiling that is about 30 feet off of the floor. If the ceiling is an open grid with exposed steel you would probably be surprised how one of then tucked in tight to the ceiling and aimed almost straight down out in the room just in front of the seating area would work or like the room I mentioned with one tucked up into a corner of the ceiling.
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Miguel Dahl

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Re: Help with evening out sub in an amphi
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2021, 06:47:17 am »

So the subs are butt kickers. Some people have already suggested hanging the speakers but you seem to have rejected that. I donít know exactly why and I am wondering if it is a physical issue or a political one or what. Are the Meyer 600HP subs the model that has hang points on them? This is why I was looking for a picture and especially of the ceiling. I donít know if you are aware of the unbelievable flexibility that you have in placement for your needs. There is one theater that I work in regularly that has 1 sub tucked way up house right on the proscenium wall almost touching the ceiling that is about 30 feet off of the floor. If the ceiling is an open grid with exposed steel you would probably be surprised how one of then tucked in tight to the ceiling and aimed almost straight down out in the room just in front of the seating area would work or like the room I mentioned with one tucked up into a corner of the ceiling.

Oh, I believe I answered why not earlier. Flying would be great. But the ceiling is rigged with hang-points and "trusses" (long pipes) for the theatre-stuff. There's no room over the stage for fly-points for the subs. Also cost of installing new fly-points which then would have to me more into the audience-area.. The tops are hanging in one of those, I can't load those points further with more weight. And it's the visuals. We all know that it's the lights and scenography which is the main star in theatre. And I can't place subs on the floor in the stage-area, because it's not that big, and with all elements, pieces, light-towers etcetc people would just tell me to get that shit out of there.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 06:49:40 am by Miguel Dahl »
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Help with evening out sub in an amphi
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2021, 09:16:06 am »

Oh, I believe I answered why not earlier. Flying would be great. But the ceiling is rigged with hang-points and "trusses" (long pipes) for the theatre-stuff. There's no room over the stage for fly-points for the subs. Also cost of installing new fly-points which then would have to me more into the audience-area.. The tops are hanging in one of those, I can't load those points further with more weight. And it's the visuals. We all know that it's the lights and scenography which is the main star in theatre. And I can't place subs on the floor in the stage-area, because it's not that big, and with all elements, pieces, light-towers etcetc people would just tell me to get that shit out of there.

You may have misunderstood me. But since I have no idea what your ceiling looks like it is impossible to tell if my suggestion would even work. If the ceiling is exposed steel and there is room to tuck it up tight (aimed straight down) and possibly up in the steel it would not be noticed. The tighter to the ceiling the better it would be. But that may not be what your ceiling looks like we donít know, only you do. I am not suggesting over the stage I would put it out from the stage. Your subs are already completely out of alignment with your mains so there is no need to try and get them close to the mains in your situation. And for this size place with this kind of usage I would only put one up there and you can keep the other one where it is in case you want to do an earthquake effect at some point.

OK a couple of other suggestions, have you tried putting them back to back with them aiming to the side walls. You might want to separate them a little bit. Or if you keep them aiming to the stage (which is how I assume they are now) play around with separating them and dropping the level of one of them a little bit. That will change where the power ally is and you might find an acceptable compromise. If you do any kind of arrangement like this when you have finalized a location be sure to mark the floor so if they are moved they can more easily be put back into the exact same location.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 09:19:13 am by Kevin Maxwell »
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Re: Help with evening out sub in an amphi
¬ę Reply #29 on: May 01, 2021, 09:16:06 am ¬Ľ


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