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Author Topic: Mic for stage bleed reduction  (Read 1743 times)

Brian Jojade

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Re: Mic for stage bleed reduction
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2021, 03:58:09 pm »

Loudest sound at the mic wins. Period. No exceptions.

A tighter pickup pattern might help slightly, if the drum kit isn't projecting from the same direction.  ie, drummer behind the singer, tighter pickup pattern does nothing.  Even off to the side, an OM7 only drops signal level of frequencies under 4K by about 10dB 60 degrees off axis.

If everywhere on the stage you're measuring over 100dB coming from the drums (which is quite common) and the singer is only producing 80dB from the mouthole pressed right up to the mic, well, you can see that the drum is going to be the loudest sound, no matter what.

There's no magic trick that can fix that.  Zip. Zero. None.

You need to find a way to make the sound coming out of the singer and getting into the mic is louder than the sound coming from the drums in order for it to work.

This includes getting them to sing louder, getting the drummer to play quieter, or somehow creating a physical barrier that blocks the sound coming from the drums.

The idea of using gates or switches only solves the problem when the singer isn't actually using the mic.  As soon as the gate opens, the problem will be right back in place.  That is, of course, unless the drummer and singer are not both playing at the same time....
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Steve Garris

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Re: Mic for stage bleed reduction
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2021, 11:06:21 pm »

Wow everyone - thanks! I forgot how great this forum is.

Basically I already knew most of the answers I would get but wanted to double-back here. One exception is; I had never heard of the Optogate - until now. I'm going to do some reading.  The guitar player doesn't sing that much, which makes me think this might be a good solution. I don't like using my board's gates with IEM mixes. Too many complaints with the clicking off/on sound in the ears. Next show I might try it and see if I can soften it up.

He's aware and willing to make adjustments as needed, with a great attitude, so no concerns there. The drummer does not play too loud at all - actually very under control and everything in his kit sounds fantastic. No to the drum shield - we spend 5 hours setting up the lights and pixel boards, and another 3 taking them down the next day. No more gear for us, and it wouldn't fit the band's rock image on stage.

Thanks everyone for the info. I'm going to stick with the 935 for now, and try gating the mic with my mixer. The Optogate might be next, we'll see. As this is his issue in his ear mix only, it's not a dire emergency for me. Perhaps I just need to push him to sing louder and get up on that mic a little better.
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: Mic for stage bleed reduction
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2021, 08:15:45 am »

Just be aware that Optogates and some types of stage LED lightning doesn't play well together, it messes up the detection/trigger functions on the Optogates.
Make sure to test the lighting conditions in "show mode" during SC if you're running into unknown lights.
Turn off the house lights and do a song in something resembling the actual show.
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Alec Spence

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Re: Mic for stage bleed reduction
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2021, 11:55:52 am »

I don't like using my board's gates with IEM mixes. Too many complaints with the clicking off/on sound in the ears. Next show I might try it and see if I can soften it up.
Depending on whether your (un-named) board has them or not, you might have more success with expanders.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Mic for stage bleed reduction
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2021, 09:27:46 pm »

Wow everyone - thanks! I forgot how great this forum is.

Basically I already knew most of the answers I would get but wanted to double-back here. One exception is; I had never heard of the Optogate - until now. I'm going to do some reading.  The guitar player doesn't sing that much, which makes me think this might be a good solution. I don't like using my board's gates with IEM mixes. Too many complaints with the clicking off/on sound in the ears. Next show I might try it and see if I can soften it up.


If your going to try gating again (you walk a fine line gating a vocal mic) set the gate depth or attenuation to maybe only 6 to 8 db with a longer release time. The lower attenuation will reduce the
stage wash but not sound like someone hit just hitting the mute button on and off on that mic channel.

Luke Geis

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Re: Mic for stage bleed reduction
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2021, 04:33:36 pm »

Expanders are much more natural sounding than gates. Where a gate cuts the signal based on a threshold and has similar properties to an expander, the gate does not really compress and decompress, so to speak, as an expander does. An expander usually has a release setting which for it, is how fast it will close back up. The decompression of the expander is usually set based on a ratio setting. So like a compressor where the ratio sets how much it will compress given X signal, the expander will " open up " based on a similar ratio. You can also set the amount of reduction. So you can set it for -6db or -12db for instance, or whatever produces the amount of reduction you need. Because of the way the expander works, even if it does open up unintentionally, it is very smooth and natural and not choppy like a gate is.

I haven't used optogates myself, have heard of them, but as with any solution, it has its cons as well. The most reliable one I have seen and heard of is the switching mat. It is a mat that has a pressure switch in it. When the artist steps on the mat, it turns on the mic, when they walk away, it turns off the mic. I see them mostly in use for talk-back mics for IEM based bands. That or an actual momentary foot switch
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I don't understand how you can't hear yourself

Doug Fowler

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Re: Mic for stage bleed reduction
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2021, 03:56:41 pm »

CM310 is the way to go if you can find one.  I used to have four of them.

This only works with lips on grill. Even a couple of inches will make a great difference.

He will know his mic technique is faulty when he can no longer hear himself. 

Dave toured Nirvana, along with Al Bagley. Al hasn't posted in forever but IIRC they had CM310.  Elvis (RIP) had (again IIRC) 4x Deltamax for his monitor setup.  I remember Bagley describing it as "punishing".

If you can imagine Slayer playing Hampton Beach Casino Ballroom, I dropped 4x EAW SM222 with JBL HF for their Elvis.  I was surprised at how little I had to EQ that setup to make it work.  It too was punishing.  Wow. Their regular ME was at FOH for this show.  I don't remember his name but his mix was fantastic, averaging around 106 dBa and it did not hurt to listen, which I found remarkable.  I believe the mic was a 58.

If you need some steam powered monitors and don't mind the weight:
https://reverb.com/item/25620036-eaw-sm222-stage-monitor-loaded-with-2445j-high-frequency-drivers-6-in-a-case

Six of those beasts in one case?  Yikes.

Sorry for the digression but the CM310 brings back the memories.

Funny story: when this gig was being advanced they asked for quite a few 850s to be brought in, stacked.  If you know the Casino Ballroom you can imagine what that did for sight lines.  Anyway, when it was pointed out only 400ish tickets out of 1100 had been sold and money to pay for this would be an issue, the reply was "Slayer never relies on advance ticket sales because we do not know if our fans will be in or out of jail on show day".

It ended up almost selling out.  A quick survey of the parking lot revealed a lot of 70s era Monte Carlo, Camaro, etc. 
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Luke Geis

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Re: Mic for stage bleed reduction
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2021, 01:47:44 pm »

Yesterday I saw an El Camino with a sticker that said Certified White Boy..... I had to see this guy to certify myself that he was in fact a white boy. Sure as poop, he was a white boy. Tattoos, mullet, unkempt facial hair, trucker hat, denim jacket and other telltale signs of being as such. I'm pretty sure he listens to Slayer or at least heavy metal :) That's it, short story today. Perfect timing Doug with your telling of Slayer.
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I don't understand how you can't hear yourself

Doug Fowler

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Re: Mic for stage bleed reduction
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2021, 02:21:01 pm »

Yesterday I saw an El Camino with a sticker that said Certified White Boy..... I had to see this guy to certify myself that he was in fact a white boy. Sure as poop, he was a white boy. Tattoos, mullet, unkempt facial hair, trucker hat, denim jacket and other telltale signs of being as such. I'm pretty sure he listens to Slayer or at least heavy metal :) That's it, short story today. Perfect timing Doug with your telling of Slayer.

lol El Camino, I'm sure they were also present in the car park.

Around here the 70s rolling stock would likely have a KSHE-95 sticker mounted somewhere.

I miss mulletsgalore.com
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Mic for stage bleed reduction
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2021, 03:12:38 pm »

pro and con on the pressure switch on the floor is you may need to use dynamic mic with no phantom power.  phantom power will pop the system when on and off triggers. 

this might also be the problem with opto  gates.   Best if on the default  dynamic mic so switching on and off will be without the pops.

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Re: Mic for stage bleed reduction
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2021, 03:12:38 pm »


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