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Author Topic: Help with phase and delays vs mains  (Read 1235 times)

Ike Zimbel

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Re: Help with phase and delays vs mains
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2021, 01:49:20 pm »

First, I can't believe how rusty I've become after almost a year doing close to nothing due to corona..

My new workplace have Meyer UPQ-1P mains and some older Yamaha DXR12 as delays. The delays only cover three rows.

My utility-case with soundcard and measurment microphone is unaccessible to me at the moment, so I did some adjustments to the system by ear, as it needed some tweaking.

I can't get the delays to play well with the mains. There's some phasing going on. I've tried increments of 1ms, and flipping polarity on one of the speakers for each increment.

There's always some narrow range of frequencies which are out of phase between delays and mains. So I chose the setting which had the least amount of "crap" in the response, and notched the range out of the delays which sounded most horrible. "Do I want it to be in phase at 250, 500, 750, and out of phase between that, or the other way around" as a from the top of my head example.

Is this just as simple as the phase response between the two speakers is just not the same in that region I'm having trouble with? It sounds good up to about 200Hz, I can hear they play well together, then the inverse phase-thing start to happen up to some higher mid somewhere. What's happening in between there in some ranges is just disturbing to listen to.
It's been ages since I've swum in these waters...but, I have been following this thread with interest. The first thing that occurred to me was that maybe there was some DSP action going on in the Yamaha boxes. Not being familiar with the DXR12 (which, I know, makes me a freak of nature on this forum :-[) I looked them up and found this: "D-CONTOUR is an intelligent multi-band compressor that gives you powerful and consistent sound throughout all output levels. By constantly monitoring the output of multiple frequency bands and calculating the optimum EQ adjustments for each, even the maximum sound output maintains outstanding clarity and musicality. With the DXR Series, D-CONTOUR provides a more detailed tuning of your sound with two different settings: FOH/Main mode or Monitor mode."
I would say that if that function is turned on, you have little to no chance of getting them to play nice with the UPM's.
And, as others have suggested, it could be radically different voicings between the two brands of speakers, but if you can access the controls on the DXR12's, I'd see if you can bypass all that "cleverness" and just get them to be a 2-Way speaker.
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Miguel Dahl

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Re: Help with phase and delays vs mains
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2021, 02:29:58 pm »

It's been ages since I've swum in these waters...but, I have been following this thread with interest. The first thing that occurred to me was that maybe there was some DSP action going on in the Yamaha boxes. Not being familiar with the DXR12 (which, I know, makes me a freak of nature on this forum :-[) I looked them up and found this: "D-CONTOUR is an intelligent multi-band compressor that gives you powerful and consistent sound throughout all output levels. By constantly monitoring the output of multiple frequency bands and calculating the optimum EQ adjustments for each, even the maximum sound output maintains outstanding clarity and musicality. With the DXR Series, D-CONTOUR provides a more detailed tuning of your sound with two different settings: FOH/Main mode or Monitor mode."
I would say that if that function is turned on, you have little to no chance of getting them to play nice with the UPM's.
And, as others have suggested, it could be radically different voicings between the two brands of speakers, but if you can access the controls on the DXR12's, I'd see if you can bypass all that "cleverness" and just get them to be a 2-Way speaker.

In did not know that D-contour was as "clever" as stated. I uasually turn off all "helping processing". But Maybe I need to check this one again. But what I know is that there's an internal HPF engaged on the boxes. Hmm. I'll take another listen to it tomorrow when I for sure know evertything is turned off. HPF is the least a Galileo can do for me.

So there's an actual multiband compressor inside the box. I did not run hard at all for testing, but maybe the circuit even if it's doing nothing actively can do some stuff to the output, if engaged. Huh, there I learnt something new, never actually checked what the D-contour does. Slap on my fingers for not checking the equipment I'm using.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 02:35:51 pm by Miguel Dahl »
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Help with phase and delays vs mains
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2021, 03:12:50 pm »

A few comments in general about "delay" speakers.  I will listen to what is coming off the back of the speaker to help me determine a good HPF.   Often the energy going the wrong way can be very detrimental as its is much more delayed then it should be. Having large speakers with real pattern control is very helpful here, and will help you keep your HPF low(er).

Additionally, i have on multiple instances rolled my own FIR coefficients in the field to get phase response to line up between two different types of loudspeakers.   I am not making any EQ adjustments with the FIR, just broadband phase.    What is sad is when speakers within a company's own line up aren't even phase matched (ie, Vertec 4886, 4888).
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Russell Ault

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Re: Help with phase and delays vs mains
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2021, 03:26:27 pm »

{...} One operates with fairly typical filters ( the Meyer ) and the other utilizes FIR filters ( the DXR ), which can create some weird phase shifts that are frequency-dependent when compared to another conventional product. {...}

Meyer Ultra-series loudspeakers use quite a bit more than "typical" crossover filters. The phase-wrap caused by the crossover filters is all-passed flat, so the phase response is flat from ~20 kHz down, with the first wrap only happening at 100 Hz. As I mentioned above, this produces a phase response that looks very similar to the DXR12's published FIR-based one.

{...}
I found a soundcard and threw up a condenser, not a measurment reference mic, but a high quality (can't remember which one) condenser, at least, just to look at the relative differences, not important if the mic itself is "off" comparing to what's really happening... Only measured up to 2K looked at the problem area which is lower than that. The SPL-response in REW told me what I wrote earlier what I was hearing, about 200Hz-ish wide bands which either have a dip or peak when I flip the polarity. Can't get the mains and the DXR's to align over that spectrum, it's either this response, or that..
I don't know if using that mic was worth anything to be honest, but even if the mic is "the wrong one", the relative response would be the same. Maybe it was just a coincidence that what I saw in REW matched with what I heard earlier.
{...}

Something is better than nothing, especially since you're doing comparative measurements (i.e. whatever distortion the microphone is inducing will affect all your measurements equally and therefore shouldn't matter much), but if you're just looking at the magnitude response then you're looking at the wrong information.

Since you now have some measurement tools, here's what I'd suggest: At the point where you want to hand off from the mains to the delay, take a measurement of the main speaker in isolation, then take a measurement of the delay speaker in isolation, then do whatever you need to do to make the phase traces of the two speakers be within 55 degrees of each other for any frequencies where the level from the two speakers is within 10 dB of each other. If you can post screen captures of these two separate measurements that might be helpful, too.

{...} But still I feel like I'd want to try the UP-Juniors for the tonality.

UPJuniors will be a perfect tonal (and phase-response) match for the UPQ-1Ps, and allow you to avoid any concerns about "in-box magic", but based on the published phase and frequency response of the DXR12s I'd be surprised if it actually solves your problem (and if it does then I'd extra like to see the what phase traces your system is putting out).

{...} Additionally, i have on multiple instances rolled my own FIR coefficients in the field to get phase response to line up between two different types of loudspeakers.   I am not making any EQ adjustments with the FIR, just broadband phase.    What is sad is when speakers within a company's own line up aren't even phase matched (ie, Vertec 4886, 4888).

I've had to do this too, but IIR. For the OP, Galileo doesn't support FIR, but each output has three all-pass filters available, which should be enough to get the job done.

(As an aside, your comment about phase-matching is one of the reasons I appreciate Meyer's approach: boxes from the same line historically have had the same phase response, and more recently their Galaxy processors make phase-matching between lines as simple as selecting from a drop-down menu, even including some of their older speakers.)

-Russ
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Scott Bolt

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Re: Help with phase and delays vs mains
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2021, 08:42:39 pm »

You guys are much more serious than I am about the delay speaker matching :).

I use the click track method.  When the click slap goes away, the delay is right .... crude, but fast.

As pointed out, trying to unroll the difference in DSP between 2 speakers from 2 different companies is a tough lift.

Great thread though.  Very informative.
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Help with phase and delays vs mains
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2021, 11:02:53 pm »

You guys are much more serious than I am about the delay speaker matching :).

I use the click track method.  When the click slap goes away, the delay is right .... crude, but fast.

As pointed out, trying to unroll the difference in DSP between 2 speakers from 2 different companies is a tough lift.

Great thread though.  Very informative.

I thought I tried the metronome method (or it may have been a looped recording of one) and I found I could because of the loop that I could be off my many Clicks and it sounded like it was right. I then changed to using a clicker that I had someone click into a mic and they were told to not do it at a fixed pace.

Then I started using SMAART many years ago and I no longer had any issue at all with setting up delay speakers.
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Russell Ault

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Re: Help with phase and delays vs mains
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2021, 11:52:48 pm »

{...} As pointed out, trying to unroll the difference in DSP between 2 speakers from 2 different companies is a tough lift. {...}

It can be (although FIR makes that much easier); adding matching rolls to each speaker can be quite a bit easier, though.

-Russ
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Help with phase and delays vs mains
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2021, 08:22:05 am »

A few comments in general about "delay" speakers.  I will listen to what is coming off the back of the speaker to help me determine a good HPF.   Often the energy going the wrong way can be very detrimental as its is much more delayed then it should be. Having large speakers with real pattern control is very helpful here, and will help you keep your HPF low(er).


This is VERY TRUE.  It can be especially important to pay attention to in places like Churches with balconies that have delays hung over the main seating (to cover the balcony).

The energy coming off the back and bottom of the loudspeaker can play havoc with the seats below the speakers, if the speaker does not have pattern control down low enough.

With any loudspeaker, you need to pay attention to not only the seats it is covering, but ALSO the seats that are out of the coverage, but are affected by the loudspeaker (loss of pattern control).

Pattern control down low is a good thing.  But comes at a price in physical size.

So often compromises have to be done on the front or back end of the job.  Understanding what is happening is key however.
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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: Help with phase and delays vs mains
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2021, 09:39:15 am »

This thread got me to thinking about how much time there is to play with FIR on delays, latency that is normally completely intolerable to live.
I think basically, the FIR time available comes down to the regular old delay setting needed.

I mean, if a delay needs say 100ms to sync up, that's worth 9600 taps of FIR playtime (100ms latency, impulse centered @48kHz.)
That much FIR could make just about any speaker have a shot at emulating the mains' response, both mag and phase. At least within linear operating range.

Heck, delays could do what mains can't ...have flat phase, better impulse response, yada yada......which then wouldn't tie together with the mains. Lol.

Anyway, new tuning tools are no doubt gonna get better it appears.
Couple futuristic processing with acoustic designs to mitigate the rear radiation problem, like what Fulcrum is doing with passive-cardioid, or like DSL is doing with size; and who knows, someday install delays may become the best seat in the house  !!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 10:04:39 am by Mark Wilkinson »
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Help with phase and delays vs mains
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2021, 02:16:17 pm »

This thread got me to thinking about how much time there is to play with FIR on delays, latency that is normally completely intolerable to live.
I think basically, the FIR time available comes down to the regular old delay setting needed.

I mean, if a delay needs say 100ms to sync up, that's worth 9600 taps of FIR playtime (100ms latency, impulse centered @48kHz.)
That much FIR could make just about any speaker have a shot at emulating the mains' response, both mag and phase. At least within linear operating range.

Heck, delays could do what mains can't ...have flat phase, better impulse response, yada yada......which then wouldn't tie together with the mains. Lol.

Anyway, new tuning tools are no doubt gonna get better it appears.
Couple futuristic processing with acoustic designs to mitigate the rear radiation problem, like what Fulcrum is doing with passive-cardioid, or like DSL is doing with size; and who knows, someday install delays may become the best seat in the house  !!

The other thing that you can do with delays, that might not be acceptable with the mains is linear phase multiband limiting for speakers with passive crossovers.   You could do it with conventional crossovers to separate out the bands, limit them individually, and sum them back together, but you would re-add all that phase shift. However, with plenty of time on your side, you can use FIRs to achieve per driver limit thresholds (to a point) with no phase deviation at all.


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Re: Help with phase and delays vs mains
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2021, 02:16:17 pm »


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