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[Dave Garoutte]

You guys!!!

Hey, spending someone else's money is almost as fun as spending our own.

[Paul G. OBrien]

Once in a while the guitar player complains because he can hear too much coming from the sub (PRX718xlf) on his side of the stage.

Are you bringing a pair of PRX718's to those gigs? If so why don't you try setting them up as a cardioid pair on one side.

[Debbie Dunkley]

Are you bringing a pair of PRX718's to those gigs? If so why don't you try setting them up as a cardioid pair on one side.

That's is a good idea except one of the main reasons those particular subs work out so well in the small clubs is because they take up such little space when set each side and of course sub poles mean no extra stands. However, it's certainly worth a try where space permits.

[Debbie Dunkley]

Hey, spending someone else's money is almost as fun as spending our own.

He he, I agree!

[Peter Kowalczyk]

Regarding your question about the QSC KS212 Cardioid Sub.  I was hired to set up a venue with one of these, bought on someone else's spec.  The cardioid effect is great.  However, like most band-pass designs, it's got a strong resonant frequency (60Hz in this case) and otherwise very uneven response.  I'm not a big fan, I wouldn't spend my money on one. 

Also remember that cardioid configurations require 'room to breathe' - if they're boxed in e.g. under the stage, or against walls, then the cardioid behavior can fall apart.

[Debbie Dunkley]

Regarding your question about the QSC KS212 Cardioid Sub.  I was hired to set up a venue with one of these, bought on someone else's spec.  The cardioid effect is great.  However, like most band-pass designs, it's got a strong resonant frequency (60Hz in this case) and otherwise very uneven response.  I'm not a big fan, I wouldn't spend my money on one. 

Also remember that cardioid configurations require 'room to breathe' - if they're boxed in e.g. under the stage, or against walls, then the cardioid behavior can fall apart.

Thanks for the info Peter.

[Bob Faulkner]

I used a JBL PRX718XLF as a cardiod sub - supporting 2 x SRX728S.  The PRX was not meant to completely reduce the bass (it was way undersized for the setup), but it did take the edge off (from what the band said).  They were pleased with the results; they could still feel and hear bass, but it was at a reduced level.  I setup the ms delay for the PRX using a separate output on a DBX-260.

In my experience, cardiods do very well outdoors (minimal boundaries).  They don't do too well indoors due to all the reflections.

[Debbie Dunkley]

In my experience, cardiods do very well outdoors (minimal boundaries).  They don't do too well indoors due to all the reflections.

Thanks Bob - well that would negate my very reason to be considering cardioid.....

[Russell Ault]

{...} In my experience, cardiods do very well outdoors (minimal boundaries).  They don't do too well indoors due to all the reflections.

I can only speak for myself, but my experience with cardioid arrays indoors has been very positive. Like a lot of other people have mentioned, though, location is vital, as is space. Flanking a small stage with cardioid subwoofer arrays isn't likely to lower stage volumes much at all.

{...} one of the main reasons those particular subs work out so well in the small clubs is because they take up such little space when set each side {...}

In that case, unfortunately, what you're seeking is not possible while still adhering to the laws of physics. Directional subwoofer arrays (whether integrated in a single box or assembled from separate ones) work because of the physical distance between transducers. At a smidgen under 3' deep the QSC KS212Cs are very much on the small side, which I suspect contributes greatly to Peter's observations (with gradient subwoofer arrays, which is most of the smaller ones, the distance between transducers is what determines the frequency response of the array).

If you've read through the recent sub placement thread you'll know I'm a big fan of cardioid arrays, but unfortunately they never "take up such little space". If you want a small stage to be quiet you'll need to sacrifice a chunk of down-centre floor space; if you want small subwoofers tucked away somewhere then they're going to be omnis.

-Russ

[David Sturzenbecher]

I can only speak for myself, but my experience with cardioid arrays indoors has been very positive. Like a lot of other people have mentioned, though, location is vital, as is space. Flanking a small stage with cardioid subwoofer arrays isn't likely to lower stage volumes much at all.

In that case, unfortunately, what you're seeking is not possible while still adhering to the laws of physics. Directional subwoofer arrays (whether integrated in a single box or assembled from separate ones) work because of the physical distance between transducers. At a smidgen under 3' deep the QSC KS212Cs are very much on the small side, which I suspect contributes greatly to Peter's observations (with gradient subwoofer arrays, which is most of the smaller ones, the distance between transducers is what determines the frequency response of the array).

If you've read through the recent sub placement thread you'll know I'm a big fan of cardioid arrays, but unfortunately they never "take up such little space". If you want a small stage to be quiet you'll need to sacrifice a chunk of down-centre floor space; if you want small subwoofers tucked away somewhere then they're going to be omnis.

-Russ

I have had a few conversations with the guys at Fulcrum Acoustics about their CS series subs.   They indicate that their design really only needs a few inches of breathing space around the box to realize the cardiod benefits.   Other positives with their design is that is doesn't require multiple amp channels.   They are still good sized though...

More details here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB8sYSnEdUY&t=4s&ab_channel=FulcrumAcoustic

https://www.fulcrum-acoustic.com/product-category/cardioid-subwoofers/

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