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Author Topic: Cardioid sub worth switching to?  (Read 5927 times)

Debbie Dunkley

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Cardioid sub worth switching to?
« on: April 06, 2021, 11:24:27 AM »

My G.A.S. has come to a grinding halt over the past year for obvious reasons and I don't necessarily want to start spending a bunch of money now till I can see the money coming in to compensate BUT......

I am looking at smallish cardioid subs. I keep seeing stuff about them (haven't heard them) and it might be a solution to a 'not too problematic' issue but an issue none the less.
Everyone in the band apart from the guitarist is iem and of course only hears what they want to hear on stage. Once in a while the guitar player complains because he can hear too much coming from the sub (PRX718xlf) on his side of the stage. I am wondering if a couple of cardioids would take care of that.
The QSC KS212C looks interesting and as this would only be for the smaller venues, I doubt I'd need any more than that. For the bigger shows, I use the Danleys anyway.
They would be coupled with my Yamaha DZR12's.

Anyone want to save me from myself?... LOL!
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Mike Santarelli

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Re: Cardioid sub worth switching to?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2021, 12:14:15 PM »

Here is my thought since owning Danley. 

1. The Subs have far more noise rejection behind than a standard reflex sub.  I’ve gotten so many compliments from bands since I’ve owned them and I attribute that the stage sound being cleaner and not mucked up with low end.  My 9006 on the other hand sound great, but can be overwhelming in tight spaces.
 
2. I’ve been using my Danley system (subs are th118xl) in smaller places I use to do with Meyer UPJ and 500hp subs. The Meyer system  sounds great but for me the passive setup is very nice to deal with on gigs and the tapped horn does a great job of keeping noise down behind. 

I guess what I’m saying is that I’d be just as happy rolling into a small spot with a single th118 and powered tops than multiple MI grade subs that will essentially take up the same space.

If you must add more speakers my  thought is grab some Th mini 15 for compact size. If you want to get even crazier I’d add some small Danley tops that can be pole mounted.  You already have the amps.  The Th mini15 is very affordable and sound great.

I had the opportunity to hear a friends th mini 15 last week and they are incredible for the size. 

I’ll pm you a video.
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Dave Garoutte

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Re: Cardioid sub worth switching to?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2021, 12:23:27 PM »

Haven't you gotten the GAS vaccine yet?

One of my regular lighting gigs uses the QSC cardioid sub for the smaller bands with good results.
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Cardioid sub worth switching to?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2021, 12:36:59 PM »

Here is my thought since owning Danley. 

1. The Subs have far more noise rejection behind than a standard reflex sub.  I’ve gotten so many compliments from bands since I’ve owned them and I attribute that the stage sound being cleaner and not mucked up with low end. 

At 80Hz, the 118XL has a 3dB more output in the front then the back (per the danley modeling software, and jives with my real world experience).   It gets worse as you go lower in freq as would be expected. 

That's hardly anything compared to subwoofers with designed in directional behavior.

The Electrovoice XCS312 claims over 20dB of rear rejection (centered around 1 frequency), and the Fulcrum Acoustics CS line is generally around 10dB of rear rejection.

Heck, two Danley BC218's can get you pretty near to 20dB of rejection outright (at 80hz).   It just goes to show in order to get directionality, you need to take up some real estate, in one dimension or another.


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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Cardioid sub worth switching to?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2021, 01:02:32 PM »

Here is my thought since owning Danley. 

1. The Subs have far more noise rejection behind than a standard reflex sub.  I’ve gotten so many compliments from bands since I’ve owned them and I attribute that the stage sound being cleaner and not mucked up with low end.  My 9006 on the other hand sound great, but can be overwhelming in tight spaces.
 
2. I’ve been using my Danley system (subs are th118xl) in smaller places I use to do with Meyer UPJ and 500hp subs. The Meyer system  sounds great but for me the passive setup is very nice to deal with on gigs and the tapped horn does a great job of keeping noise down behind. 

I guess what I’m saying is that I’d be just as happy rolling into a small spot with a single th118 and powered tops than multiple MI grade subs that will essentially take up the same space.

If you must add more speakers my  thought is grab some Th mini 15 for compact size. If you want to get even crazier I’d add some small Danley tops that can be pole mounted.  You already have the amps.  The Th mini15 is very affordable and sound great.

I had the opportunity to hear a friends th mini 15 last week and they are incredible for the size. 

I’ll pm you a video.

Quite a few times I have taken the Danley system to smaller shows and simply turned down but some places are more conducive to the powered system : the PRX's are tall and take up very little room so good if you are limited on space. Also the load in is a little easier with the PRX's... I use them as dollies as they are on wheels, The TH118 is a tilt back - easy to move around without doubt but not as useful. There are other silly little reasons why I still use the powered set up in some places but I'm starting to think maybe I should go out and out Danley, sell the powered stuff (or at least the subs), purchase 2 more TH118's with the money ( for the larger shows) and be done with it...... AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH - WHAT DID I JUST SAY?
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Cardioid sub worth switching to?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2021, 01:04:11 PM »

Haven't you gotten the GAS vaccine yet?


Not yet Dave - The most vulnerable in society received it first ( I thought I was in that demographic but apparently not) LOL
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Cardioid sub worth switching to?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2021, 01:29:26 PM »

I'm starting to think maybe I should go out and out Danley, sell the powered stuff (or at least the subs), purchase 2 more TH118's with the money ( for the larger shows) and be done with it...... AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH - WHAT DID I JUST SAY?
Do it!...Do it!!!
In my experience, card subs can have pretty good cancellation at the rear of the cabinet, if that's where the listener is.
From what you say, it's more the player hearing  the side (ish) and may not benefit from the cardioid pattern.
Also, remember that to make cancellations, you loose output so... BUY THE DANLEY :D
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Frank Koenig

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Re: Cardioid sub worth switching to?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2021, 01:39:24 PM »

I'm starting to think maybe I should go out and out Danley, sell the powered stuff (or at least the subs), purchase 2 more TH118's with the money ( for the larger shows) and be done with it...... AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH - WHAT DID I JUST SAY?

And, to be clear, with 3 or 4 identical Danley subs you have the option of using them in a directional array, either cardioid or endfire. I assume this is what you're thinking. --Frank
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Cardioid sub worth switching to?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2021, 02:37:00 PM »

You guys!!!

How would the TH mini's work with the TH118's? - thinking using the minis for small stuff and adding them to the TH118's for bigger stuff.
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Frank Koenig

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Re: Cardioid sub worth switching to?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2021, 03:03:52 PM »

How would the TH mini's work with the TH118's?

As a practical matter, don't do it. While it may be possible to match phase responses over some range using heroic filters (DSP) it's just not worth it. Use identical subs and restrict your processing to delay and amplitude shading as needed.

Now will two to four TH-Minis work as a directional array? I haven't tried it but would expect it to work very well. But I'll add, in my experience as an owner of 2 TH-Minis and 4 TH-118s, I prefer to take a single TH-118 over 2 TH-minis anywhere it will fit. It's as easy to move and goes lower and louder. In this case I'm not doing anything directional, of course. (One of the TH-Minis now lives under my bed where it's the sub for the TV. Too bad I don't watch more action movies.)

--Frank
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Re: Cardioid sub worth switching to?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2021, 03:03:52 PM »


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